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Patriotism

Started by aitm, May 25, 2014, 10:49:58 PM

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AllPurposeAtheist

Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 27, 2014, 01:24:19 PM
I know. I just wanted to add. x
..and make me feel guilty. I know. It's alright. :lol:
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

AllPurposeAtheist

I'm genetically predisposed to feel guilty around women in general. Martha already figured that out on our first date. :eek:
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

La Dolce Vita

Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 27, 2014, 01:23:24 PM
Yeah, "I can't make the connection, so it must be 'laughable bullshit! WTF'. :lol: 

Instead of quoting the annoying part to get back, try to read the whole post. May be something will stick to make sense some time later.

I did read the whole post. You said that caring about and trying to make the society you live in better by necessity lead to a dogmatic ideology where you cannot criticize said society ... And then went on an even weirder rant, none of which was connected to my post at all.

I do get that you just misunderstood my post, somehow reading into it that I was a proponent of "patriotism" trying to make it sound clean. But you have now been corrected (granted I was harsh, but your reply was insane), and you still want me to see some "connection"? Color me confused.

La Dolce Vita

#33
That was not the negative bit about patriotism. That was simply listing good, useful qualities that often gets labelled as patriotism. I then went on to add this, which was the insult to patriotism:

QuoteIgnoring when your country does something wrong, holding it sacred, etc. is on the other hand 100% destructive and should be avoided at all cost.

Which was the "fuck you" to patriotism.


But yes, if you think no one is in any capacity to do anything, change anything, etc. in any country without becoming a criminal ... Well, then we are certainly on completely different planes of existence. Not every country are as corrupt as your country must be in order for you to make such a statement. Hell, even in the US the people have managed to legalize gay marriage, etc. in certain states, proving your argument 100% wrong. And why not be proud when the people or their elected officials stands up to religious zealots, immoral politics/laws or just making the right call on an important issue?

La Dolce Vita

#34
Drunkenshoe, can you please actually try to read what's presented to you? I said "Not every country is as corrupt as your country must be in order for you to make such a statement." I never stated that no country was corrupt. Of course every country is corrupt ... And now your entire argument centers on how I think this obvious fact, that I can't even be interpreted to have dismissed (except by you, somehow) isn't true, and is extreme? No! What I commented on as insane was the notion that no one can change anything in a country (for the better) without becoming a criminal. That was my injection. (You would have known that if you had actually read my post). This belief of yours is demonstrated wrong on a regular basis.

QuoteBy the way, if you are going to skip what you like and answer to what you want, like you have been doing since the first post, just don't bother to answer, OK?

I have read every single word you have written in reply to me! This is becoming weirder and weirder. You are the one throwing in exploding strawmen, never addressing a single points I actually make (but instead making the most irrational interpretation of it as plausible, and lonely focusing on said, extreme strawman), and go on as if nothing has happened when you are proven wrong.

QuoteI said the same thing that in the post in a different way "You are not saying something critical against patriotism, you are actually counting the common bullshit sauce that patriotism is served with in the 20-21st century."

I have replied to this, I just didn't quote your entire post, because it was so off - but I did address your main critique of the arguments, including this. And now you're screaming about me not reading your posts ...

And how on earth can you think that this is my point? I have repeatedly stated that these were "GOOD". That was my reply to the quote above. That these are useful traits! It's stated in my first post and it's stated everywhere since. How could you not have read that??? I do NOT agree with you. What you are repeating now is not a restatement of my point in a different way. This is getting surreal.

Atheon

Patriotism is too often confused with nationalism or chauvinism. It's an oft-abused term. I would not consider the Tea Party Patriots to be patriots, for instance. Rush Limbaugh is not a patriot. A true patriot wants to see his country become a better, fairer, juster, more civilized place.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

La Dolce Vita

I think this will be my last reply, because nothing you say make any coherent sense as a reply to my post, continues to be crazy strawmen, and demonstrates that you are simply ignoring everything I'm writing. I will get rude now, because what you write in correlation to my post is just too insane.

QuoteThe word extreme was used in my post with "I see that it sounds alien to you and you think it's extreme. Well it is not. It's realistic and blunt that's all. " Meaning you think the way I am looking at this is extreme, because it is alien to you, but it is not. It's realistic. Because you are looking at this with pink glasses.

WTF are you even talking about. I agreed that all countries were corrupt, demonstrated you were wrong about your crazy strawman interpretation of my points - and you are still pulling this BS?

QuoteYes, people cannot change anything. This is not a belief, it is called reality; the thing that doesn't go away when you don't agree with it.

A reality demonstrated wrong every time we get a new law. This is demonstrable reality. What drugs are you using? It's proven over and over again. Things fucking change. Ideals change, ideas change. Compare society to society just 50 years ago. See the changes in norms and morals - see the changes in laws. You are demonstrably proven wrong. You live in a fantasy world! Of course said changes will usually benefit the power center - but so what? What relevance does it have? It does not change the truth. And then you go on about dying for your country and other patriotic BS in a reply to someone who rejects patriotism.

As for "being proud" I never said being proud of yourself when you haven't achieved anything ... You can be proud of what you care about, without placing said pride on yourself. Your nonsense and strawmen knows no end. You can be proud of your children, friends, community, etc. If you have something to help, you can be proud of yourself as well.

I did not read all of your post because it had too little connection to anything relevant in the discussion between the two of us, and comes off as an insane rant of strawmen, with you seemingly thinking you are educating me ...

I am incredibly disappointed in you after this discussion. You appear to believe your own disingenuous and insane strawmen. It's just sad at this point.

Jack89

Quote from: Atheon on May 28, 2014, 02:00:51 AM
Patriotism is too often confused with nationalism or chauvinism. It's an oft-abused term. I would not consider the Tea Party Patriots to be patriots, for instance. Rush Limbaugh is not a patriot. A true patriot wants to see his country become a better, fairer, juster, more civilized place.
This is how I see it as well.  In my case, I was raised in small town America to believe that a person should love and support their country.  You could say that I was socially conditioned or brainwashed, and I wouldn't argue with you about it, or even apologize for it.  I understand that I have been conditioned to feel connected to the idea of America, and that I should support that idea.  Civic virtue and duty are a part of the package, and those concepts strengthen the shared social bond I have with other people who think similarly.  That doesn't mean I'm blindly loyal to government authority, or that I don't see the atrocities committed by the US government over the years.  It means that I should support that conditioned concept of what my country should be.  I should object and protest corruption, and it will always be there, in an attempt to bring my country as close as possible to what I think is right.  I understand that my environment shaped the way I feel about about my country and my concept of patriotism.  I accept that.  That being said, I don't object to change if I see a better way.

Drunkenshoe, you claim that patriotism is the same as tribalism.  I disagree.  Patriotism is a product of nationalism, a loyalty to a nation state.  Nation states stomped out most tribal societies in the name of civilization.  To be perfectly honest, I think old school tribalism might be preferable, but the nation state is what we have to work with and we can't really go back. 

Shol'va

My homecountry has a rich, diverse, and very long history dating all the way back to before the Roman Empire. As a culture, it has survived despite being the victim of countless wars of opression, having territories under foreign occupation at any given point in time through history. It has survived being the only latin language surrounded, and conquered, by slavic languages. It has maintained it's Orthodox religious identity despite the better efforts of communism and fascism in recent times, and the best effors of the Ottoman Empire, etc etc. We have countless martyrs that were tortured and killed simply because they would not completely renounce their cultural identity.
Not once did we set military foot in foreign land, save for WW2 when we crossed into Russian territory as an effort to get our own lands back.

And I am supposed to chuck this all away and NOT self-identify as a patriot in the sense that I am proud of my heritage, the accomplishments of my people, proud of my country, with all its faults, for fear that I may be associated with self-labeled "patriot" fuckwits such as Rush Limbaugh and every person out there that thinks it's a benevolent idea to force democracy around the world?

Shol'va

#39
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 28, 2014, 09:31:06 AM
Patriotism is a political ideology and it has nothing to do with: "A true patriot wants to see his country become a better, fairer, juster, more civilized place." This is against that ideology. A true patriot is the person who is loyal to his country and gives it support to it UNDER ANY circumstances whatsoever, whatever its domestic and international policy is. Patriotism demands absolute loyalty. Defining patriotism in a sensible, likable manner with desired positive traits, that a person sees it 'should be' in hypermodern area doesn't change the ideology or definition of it. It doesn't work that way. Because it's religious in nature; it is in fact a religion.

You are asking us to chuck away any and all intricacies and complexities and nuances of the definition of patriot in favor of your personal, rigid view of what patriotism is. I am sorry, but unless I have some compelling citations and sources that support that patriotism is exactly what I just cited you saying, and nothing else, I'm having a particularly tough time accepting that view.
Don't allow yourself and your views to be warped by evildoers. If anything, we should fight against the tide.

If I am NOT a patriot by what I described, then what am I?
I'm pretty sure whatever definition I may fit, we can find negative aspects of it. Should I then remove myself from that as well?

Shol'va

#40
Quote from: drunkenshoe on May 28, 2014, 03:18:17 PM
Every human birth is random. You didn't choose to be born into some nation or work for it.
You are absolutely right, and for that reason I don't claim and never did claim any credit to myself as a derivative from what others did. All I am saying is that the sense of patriotism stems from the rich history, which also motivates me to do whatever I think is right to make it a better place. Sure, patriotism can be used as a political tool to garner all sorts of support from naive citizens, but that is not its only applicability, nor its only meaning. Any feeling or emotion or point of view can be manipulated for political gain. It is folly to confuse it with the political game itself.

If we are to discard patriotism, what are we going to replace it with? Or should we entirely rid ourselves of any passionate adherence to our own culture?

La Dolce Vita

^^Patriotism should be thrown out in it's entirety. It is the same BS tribalism that's behind every religion. Patriotism is blind love for your country. Supporting it above all others. Placing it first regardless of facts. Not to mention that country is relatively poorly defined. Is it about the non-conscious nature within a set of selected borders, the people or the government - either way it makes no sense. Why would you by necessity support any of these things? Land is just land, people are flawed and diverse and the varying governments that will get in charge even more so.

I can't see why we'd have a need to replace patriotism with anything. If one needs to fill the "void", how about humanism and rationality? And no, patriotism is about your country, not your culture, which can extend beyond your borders, or you may be part of a culture the majority of your "country" does not share.

And when we start talking about adherence to our own culture something is seriously wrong. One should NEVER be adherent to any concepts just because you grew up with them. That's the way one makes horrible decisions. Always be skeptical, question everything, investigate the effects of what you are adhering to, see if there are better ways, etc. Never follow anything blindly. This has nothing to do with stopping you from enjoying and participating in your culture. Be whoever you want to be. Follow the rituals you want to follow. But don't throw away your tools of skepticism, rational thinking and rational morality simply because of adherence to your traditional way of life.

As I said in an earlier, caring about your society, working for improvements and defending good ideas from harmful ones, are wonderful things to do - but don't start associating this with patriotism. Said society can also mean everything from your school/workplace, tiny town, county, state, country, continent, world, etc. Make the world a little better by focusing on what you can actually do.

Shol'va

#42
Could you please provide sources that support your specific descriptors of patriotism, in an exclusive manner? I am referring to "blind love for country", support it above all others, placing it first regardless of facts?
A random sample of "define patriotism" yields results like "devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty", and Webster simply describes it a love for country.
It has become a politically charged term and has a lot of negative baggage needlessly assigned to it simply because politicians have and continue to abuse the term. And I continue not giving a crap what others interpret it as being and unfairly assigning baggage to other self-identified patriots. Patriotism is neither excuse nor mechanism to isolate one in their own country of origin. I wouldn't have emigrated if that were the case. There is an entire spectrum of "patriots", just like there is an entire spectrum of atheists. At its core, patriotism is love for country. What people do with that, how they interpret it, how they apply it, doesn't change the core.

We are in disagreement only over the interpretation of the term. What has happened thus far in this thread is various announcements of individual perspectives over what the term means. I've only tried to point out those perspectives are neither exclusive nor all-inclusive.

I'm not out there looking for a label to assignm myself, but I really do love my country of origin, it's people, landscape, culture, pretty much everything about it I can think of. I am first in line to critique it harshly for its shortcomings, both of the citizens and especially of the highly corrupt government, its social inequality, etc etc. By no means do I regard it through rose-colored glasses. After all, it is the present economic and social turmoil that is keeping me away from it!
So what descriptor would be suitable for me?

Shol'va

In retrospect, I am starting to realize this thread came about the display of patriotism on Memorial Day. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment of the op. Overall, as an immigrant, I've always found this display and public discourse of patriotism excessive to an extreme, here in the US. Every time I see a truck drive past me with a giant US flag I just roll my eyes.

AllPurposeAtheist

#44
It's usually over the top having little to nothing to do with love of country, but some agenda and misinterpretation of history and "the constitution".  Shol, next time you get a chance ask some dipshit in Texas what the first article of the Constitution says and I bet he or she says "freedom of speech".
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.