Author Topic: The Social Oppression of Women  (Read 5370 times)

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 01:26:13 PM »

Women are just as aggressive as any man.

Both are still human, still apes, and still prone to destructive behaviors.

I agree that both can fall into destructive behavior but overall I don't believe women are as aggressive as men. Male Chimps are fucking crazy and far more aggressive than the females. I think its easy to find individual women who are very aggressive and passive men, but overall I have to give the anger/violence prize to the men.

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Let's not convince ourselves that women are as innocent and defenseless as men's misconceptions over the millennia has fooled them into believing. Yes, women have been handed a shitty deal for a very, very long time - but that doesn't make us inherently docile.

I agree.
I don't mean to infantilize women or anything like that. However I don't think it's sexist to recognize that there are behavioral differences between the sexes when looking a them as a group.
When discussing individuals though, we have to be open minded and understand that women can be aggressive, men can be passive and everything in between. 
Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Offline stromboli (OP)

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 01:31:50 PM »
I don't believe that women are either docile or incapable, simply suppressed in certain societies. the recent effort by Mormon women to do something as simple as attend Priesthood meetings and being told they can't is a good example, and any number of examples in both fundie xtianity and Islam.

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 03:46:44 PM »
I agree that both can fall into destructive behavior but overall I don't believe women are as aggressive as men. Male Chimps are fucking crazy and far more aggressive than the females. I think its easy to find individual women who are very aggressive and passive men, but overall I have to give the anger/violence prize to the men.

Human beings aren't chimpanzees and we aren't bonobos either, which are even more closely related to chimpanzees and have a radically different social hierarchy. Amazing what a few diverges in the genes can do. Our evolution points toward far more cooperative behavior between males and females than chimpanzees have ever displayed. I think it's best that if you want to make a case for human male aggression, then use human males.

With human males, there is evidence of the status quo (from an evolutionary point) being that males played some role which used their enhanced physical strength and recklessness to advantage for the group. However, there is also evidence of males being able to deviate from the status quo with a high degree of variability.  For instance, males have a nurturing side, and they do submit to others who are demonstrably weaker than them. There is evidence of the status quo (from an evolutionary standpoint) being that females played some role in which reduced physical strength and frugality were used for the advantage of the group. Yet, there is evidence of females being able to deviate from this in which they do display aggression, they disconnect from nurturing, and they refuse to submit to those stronger (even at great peril to themselves). It does not appear to be the "natural" order for males to dominate females in regards to humans. Our anatomy and behavior points to a division of labor, compensatory versatility, and a high degree of cooperation. All of which is very limited in chimpanzee society but more prevalent in ancient human society.

Lastly, using more current societies to determine the innate behaviors of men or women is going to be difficult and at times misleading. Both men and women are reared in artificially created gender roles which inhibit the healthy emotional expression for boys (suck it up and be a man, men don't cry, doing "feminine" things means you're gay... etc) and curbs aggression and assertiveness in girls (the man is in charge, be a lady, must be delicate and presentable if you are to marry, looks matter more than brains... etc). The  gender roles do not line up with how we inherently feel since there is much dissent and grievance from those who feel hopelessly stuck.

The only thing for certain is human males display more aggression than women but the cause of this is unclear at best. Are males more aggressive because of the testosterone levels alone, because many of the traditional male roles focus on strong traits with no regard to understanding/expressing vulnerable emotions, or a combination of the two?
Quote from: Jakeness
if you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2014, 05:29:13 PM »
Human beings aren't chimpanzees and we aren't bonobos either, which are even more closely related to chimpanzees and have a radically different social hierarchy. Amazing what a few diverges in the genes can do. Our evolution points toward far more cooperative behavior between males and females than chimpanzees have ever displayed. I think it's best that if you want to make a case for human male aggression, then use human males.

Err... I was responding to your statement:
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Quote from: Aletheia on Today at 12:39:11 PM
Both are still human, still apes, and still prone to destructive behaviors.
Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2014, 06:27:34 PM »
For humans it's a purely cultural thing. It can just as easily be the other way around. As it effectively is with e.g. bonobos and hyenas. The latter even take it a couple steps further. In the matriarchal society of hyenas males are at the absolute bottom rung of the social ladder. Waaay behind the females. And the troupe's matriarch, a hard, unscrupulous dictatress that will kill males if they cross her in any way, even grows an honest-to-god (fake) penis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-penis, actually a super-duper clitoris, that's larger than male hyenas' real penises.



To assert and reinforce her dominance over other individuals, male and female, the matriarch/dictatress will even ritually mount them as if she were a copulating male.


I.o.w. humanity can change the male/female stereotyping. But, like with racism, it's going to be very hard to change. Likely harder. But it IS possible.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 06:51:07 PM by Mandingo »

Offline Mermaid

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2014, 06:30:59 PM »
Females also mate and give birth with that thing, making rape basically impossible.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2014, 06:59:47 PM »
Females also mate and give birth with that thing, making rape basically impossible.

I'm not sure how that would mechanically work, but then I'm not sure I would want to be... :-)

But since you brought it up: how would an enlarged clitoris impede a rape?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:01:34 PM by Mandingo »

Offline Mermaid

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2014, 08:57:20 PM »
They have to copulate THROUGH it, (as in, penis is inserted into it), they do not have an external vagina, so it requires cooperation. It sounds like a lot of work, but it apparently works for them.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2014, 08:32:12 AM »
They have to copulate THROUGH it, (as in, penis is inserted into it), they do not have an external vagina, so it requires cooperation. It sounds like a lot of work, but it apparently works for them.

So you're saying that their clitoris doubles as a vagina?
Wow, then it must be super-elastic and muscularly strong at the same time if it can be functionally erect and semi-erect most of the time while allowing birth of a full-grown pup when necessary.

Offline Mermaid

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2014, 09:59:12 AM »
It tears when the female has her first litter and is forever changed afterward. I am fuzzy on those details, only because it hurts to think about it.

It is amazing to me how successful they are given these weird reproductive rules. But successful they are. One of the most successful carnivores in the world.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: The Social Oppression of Women
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2014, 11:22:48 AM »
It tears when the female has her first litter and is forever changed afterward.

Small wonder hyenas often have a bad temper.