An introduction and maybe some questions

[SB Leader]

Hello friends,

Happy Easter everyone! My name is Zach and I am a sophomore at a small place called Crown College. I am a Christian, so today is a pretty special time for me--the Creator sent his son to die for me so many years ago. I have worked with an online gaming ministry, Soldiers of Christ, for some 8 years now, so I am familiar with some of the meandering currents of the internet ocean--some people are willing to have a discussion, others are not. But fortunately, I hope to have some tame but enlightening discussions here. Don't worry, having worked at SoC I know how horrible it is when someone from the "other side" comes on and trolls--that is not at all what I am here for.

If you all are interested or able, I do have some questions, but if that's not your thing a simple "hello" will suffice. :D

I am currently working on a research project for college that includes these questions. But try not to think of this as research--I won't include any of your real names, but it really would help me if you could answer these as honestly as you can. If you do not feel comfortable answering these questions in public, you can also pm me.

In summary, I would love to open up honest conversations about some of these questions! While I am directing this at non-believers, I would welcome other Christians to interact with this topic as well. Here are the questions:

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

Thank you all! I am pretty busy as of late, but I am going to try to interact with this community as much as I can.

[Mermaid]

Hi Zach, nice to meet you. Happy Easter.

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

Grew up affiliated with an Episcopal church. I was confirmed when I was 13. I did take a bible class, too.

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

To me, God is a fabrication based on some events and/or stories that happened a very long time ago. What's important in life is being true to myself and my family. Love is everything.

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

The name given to the God people follow.

Edited to add: A handy expletive when I catch my pinkie toe on the corner of the coffee table.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

Guilt, judgment, disrespect, proselytizing, bigotry, hypocrisy, control of people and subjugation of women in the name of Christianity. That sort of thing.

[stromboli]

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?
42 years a mormon, 18 years a Christian, now an atheist

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
God isn't "like" anything because god doesn't exist. he/she/it is a supernatural concept which by definition is beyond human understanding

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
Pointless question

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
Pointless question

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
A fictional character created by Romans from a (possible) real person, grafted onto a lot of other previous "messiah" figures

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?
That they exist

Thank you all! I am pretty busy as of late, but I am going to try to interact with this community as much as I can.

[stromboli]

Oh, and by the way, you might want to spend some time following some of the threads on here. Right off the bat you strike me as a really naive individual.

[SB Leader]

Hello Mermaid, nice to meet you as well. If you don't mind I have only a brief clarifying question for you:

Guilt, judgment, disrespect, proselytizing, bigotry, hypocrisy, control of people and subjugation of women in the name of Christianity. That sort of thing.

I want to start by saying that I agree. We act as judges, speak disrespectfully, pour out guilt to others, and are major hypocrites. We are broken, wretched people. But for many of us, that is why we are at church--or perhaps more accurately, why we are believers. We need a doctor and we have found one and he has asked us to join his family. We are still being worked on and many of us still have a very long way to come. I am sorry.

But my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree? If we really believe that what we believe is true, wouldn't we want others to believe that too? :)

EDIT: Hi, stromboli. Thank you, I will try to peruse as best I can.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Hi and no, I'm not in the least bit interested in discussing your woo bullshit. If you want to talk about anything else not related to your woo, fine. Otherwise I'd be perfectly content for you to STFU.

Gee wiz, I hope I'm not being to vague.

Care to "debate" why the tooth fairy buys kids teeth for mere pennies on the dollar and yet dentists are so expensive? It's about as realistic as your woo(ish) nonsense. At least kids get cash out of the deal.

[the_antithesis]

-To you, what is God like? Describe God.

What's a god?

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

They're full of christians.

[La Dolce Vita]

Hey. Welcome to our forum.

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

My parents and most of my family are atheist. I was taken to Sunday school when I was 5-6 because I had an interest in the subject. I was actually sad when it closed due to lack of attendance. Only 3 kids or something were there. (We are an atheist country). Read the new testament at 7-8, and dismissed it. Always loved the subject of religion however. My grandmother and her husband (who I consider my grandfather), lovely people, are Jehova's Witness. I went to some meetings with them whenever they would babysit me. Been inside a regular church 2-3 times maybe.

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?

There are so many god-concepts. Monotheism, Polytheism, Deism, Patheism, etc. As you asked for a specific god I suppose you are referring to a monotheistic god, in which case the official definition is "A mind/being that created the world and interact with it" - with multiple other different attributes given to the various monotheistic gods that people believe in. Often the definition will vary from muslim to muslim, christian to christian.

As to what is important in life: Happiness, co-existence/humanitarianism, strong morals based on logic and never falling into the claws of faith. I think we should do what we can to make the lives of the people around us better, and also enjoy the life we have to the fullest without hurting anyone else. Life is incredibly meaningful as it's the only life we will get, and we must do the most of it, and help those around us be able to do the same.

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)

I do not believe in a god, but I am agnostic, so if one or more gods existed, and it is actually a good god (unlike the horrible monster your bible presents "him" to be, the monster the qur'an presents him to be, etc.) that could actually be respected, it would have to be a god that valued goodness rather than belief, and obviously not one so insane that it sentenced people to infinite torture/punishment for finite crimes. :D

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)

As I said, I do not believe in any god, so I don't believe there's any god to straighten anything out with, but:

If a monotheistic god existed, and actually expected or wanted us to care about it, said god would have a lot to answer for in regard to how it made the world and how unfair it is. I have a hard time seeing a god that's not either oblivious to our existence or thinks of us as we do ants and pays us no mind could be morally defensible given birth-defects, etc. It would have a lot of apologizing to do, or reveal some actual logical and morally valid  reason for this "experiment".

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.

In regard to the character in the bible he is the one that presents the concept of hell, which is one of the most disgusting and awful ideas ever presented, and has caused so much torment though hundreds of almost two thousand years. If Jesus existed he was likely either a con-man, a genuinely believing person who was wrong/insane or a leader who never claimed to be god, but were attributed this later. We really can't tell. What we do know is that the story only got more complex with time.  There are people claiming to be god with legions of followers today, many of which have been attributed miracles - and that's today. Who knows what the origins of Jesus was.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches today?

Looking away from child-rape, spreading disinformation about AIDS, burning "witches" (yes, they still do that in Africa, usually children), etc. I.e. the most extreme and obviously abhorrent things you'd likely not agree with, churches spread falsehoods and worse, makes people hold positions based on faith, the most dishonest thing one could ever do. Faith is not good. It's not a tool to find right answers. It breeds gullibility. The falsehoods also creates massive ignorance. And of course they follow the bible - a very disgusting book with concepts such as hell, and commandments about killing gays and disobedient children - though luckily they have removed the child thing entire, and only a portion of christians view homosexuality as wrong these days. They still follow the book however, and it's the source of so many disgusting, clearly evil, morals. They also still preach the concept of hell, which has traumatized and hurt so many people.

Thank you all! I am pretty busy as of late, but I am going to try to interact with this community as much as I can.

Good to know. :)


Now that I have answered your questions I'd like to end with what I consider an obligatory, but most likely fruitless act, of trying to save you from the falsehoods you have been thought:

Nothing implies your god ever died for you, or that he even exists. In fact we know for certain that the christian god cannot exist as depicted as Christianity is based on Judaism and the Jews were polytheistic up until around 500 years B.C. At that point your god, Yahweh (the Jewish war god), was the son of El, the creator god. These gods were later merged. Some stories in your old testament still include other gods as the stories were not entirely rewritten - the mentions of them being related to Yahweh/El and older context was simply removed. It's also worth noting that there was no Adam and Eve (given evolution being a fact - the catholic stance - they accept evolution - is an impossibility) therefor there was no fall of man and Jesus had no reason to die for your sins in the first place. I am not dismissing the possibility of A god, but your god cannot exist.

[the_antithesis]

But my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree?

By that logic, I belong to the Church of Shut the Fuck Up.

[La Dolce Vita]

Hello Mermaid, nice to meet you as well. If you don't mind I have only a brief clarifying question for you:
I want to start by saying that I agree. We act as judges, speak disrespectfully, pour out guilt to others, and are major hypocrites. We are broken, wretched people. But for many of us, that is why we are at church--or perhaps more accurately, why we are believers. We need a doctor and we have found one and he has asked us to join his family. We are still being worked on and many of us still have a very long way to come. I am sorry.

Boy, then you have found a bad doctor! It's your church that specifically creates this behavior. Sure, they will be found to varying extents regardless, but your bible and the teachings of Christianity is encouraging this behavior. It promotes innocent/harmless behaviors as sinful. It threatens you with hell. It tells you who goes to hell. Huge portions of what any christian condemns will be traced directly to his or her religion.

But my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree? If we really believe that what we believe is true, wouldn't we want others to believe that too? :)

There's a big difference between arguing for your views, promoting your views, showing why it's true or likely true, etc. - and what is commonly understood as proselytizing, i.e. preaching without being willing to debate or demonstrate any claims. Any group can preach, shame, etc. but it should be disencouraged.

[Berati]

We are broken, wretched people.

What a horrible attitude.
Christians, more than any other religion have created a mythology of sin to which they have the only (very lucrative) cure for.

Tell me, if christianity is so morally good, why is that we have had to defang christianity and remove it from a position of political authority in order to make any moral progress in society?

[aitm]

today is a pretty special time for me--the Creator sent his son to die for me

because EVERBODY knows that going from a goat herder to a GOD is a sacrifice


cough cough---bullshit--cough cough

[SB Leader]

Thank you for the answers. I will address a few, if you do not mind. I hope I don't seem argumentative, but your posts seem in-depth enough to warrant an acknowledgement.

If a monotheistic god existed, and actually expected or wanted us to care about it, said god would have a lot to answer for in regard to how it made the world and how unfair it is. I have a hard time seeing a god that's not either oblivious to our existence or thinks of us as we do ants and pays us no mind could be morally defensible given birth-defects, etc. It would have a lot of apologizing to do, or reveal some actual logical and morally valid  reason for this "experiment".

Perhaps it isn't an experiment but an allowance. If man is truly allowed to be free then all of his actions must be allowed to have their consequences--good or bad. I think part of what makes a human *human* is an ability to make choices, but I think those choices have results. Hurt exists in our world because of the wrong that man has done.

Looking away from child-rape, spreading disinformation about AIDS, burning "witches" (yes, they still do that in Africa, usually children), etc. I.e. the most extreme and obviously abhorrent things you'd likely not agree with, churches spread falsehoods and worse, makes people hold positions based on faith, the most dishonest thing one could ever do. Faith is not good. It's not a tool to find right answers. It breeds gullibility. The falsehoods also creates massive ignorance. And of course they follow the bible - a very disgusting book with concepts such as hell, and commandments about killing gays and disobedient children - though luckily they have removed the child thing entire, and only a portion of christians view homosexuality as wrong these days. They still follow the book however, and it's the source of so many disgusting, clearly evil, morals. They also still preach the concept of hell, which has traumatized and hurt so many people.

I agree that blind faith is not good. If we just choose to follow whatever we want with no vision whatsoever we are in for a wild ride. But Christians would say that faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. There is a confidence that is based in a certain revealed knowledge. We all demonstrate faith everyday. Do you believe Australia exists? Of course, you probably do. Have you ever been there? If not then what you know about that place is based on what others have reported to you. You choose whether you trust them or not (Which you probably do). So faith, when seen in that light, probably is not so dangerous. Now if we just believe in Australia and hope we will one day get to see it, we are going to be disappointed. We have to make plans, get packing, and buy tickets. Research is involved to know that where we are going is everything it claims to be. But after my research, I am confident that I will one day be in the place that has been promised.

Nothing implies your god ever died for you, or that he even exists. In fact we know for certain that the christian god cannot exist as depicted as Christianity is based on Judaism and the Jews were polytheistic up until around 500 years B.C. At that point your god, Yahweh (the Jewish war god), was the son of El, the creator god. These gods were later merged. Some stories in your old testament still include other gods as the stories were not entirely rewritten - the mentions of them being related to Yahweh/El and older context was simply removed. It's also worth noting that there was no Adam and Eve (given evolution being a fact - the catholic stance - they accept evolution - is an impossibility) therefor there was no fall of man and Jesus had no reason to die for your sins in the first place. I am not dismissing the possibility of A god, but your god cannot exist.

I have actually never heard about Jews being polytheistic, and I would curious to read more. Do you have any resources I could examine for that?

Boy, then you have found a bad doctor! It's your church that specifically creates this behavior. Sure, they will be found to varying extents regardless, but your bible and the teachings of Christianity is encouraging this behavior. It promotes innocent/harmless behaviors as sinful. It threatens you with hell. It tells you who goes to hell. Huge portions of what any christian condemns will be traced directly to his or her religion.

But I think we can agree that certain standards are universally recognized. Child rape is wrong, so is murder. I think these standards transcend a certain religion and are true for all humanity. There is an innate sense of right and wrong in everyone. I don't believe that to be a coincidence--Something or Someone who valued Good must have placed that on our hearts.

There's a big difference between arguing for your views, promoting your views, showing why it's true or likely true, etc. - and what is commonly understood as proselytizing, i.e. preaching without being willing to debate or demonstrate any claims. Any group can preach, shame, etc. but it should be disencouraged.

I agree that that form of proselytizing is wrong. I apologize if that is what you have seen from Christians.

I really appreciate everyone's willingness to discuss. This has been very helpful.

EDIT:

Tell me, if christianity is so morally good, why is that we have had to defang christianity and remove it from a position of political authority in order to make any moral progress in society?

I don't know if this is entirely true, Berati. Christianity has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society. You might be interested in this article.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Never been religious. What the hell is a god?


Sent from Monster Island. Titty sprinkles.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Christianity has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society.

Most non-Christians would tend to disagree.


Sent from Monster Island. Titty sprinkles.