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Present Evidence Here II

Started by Fidel_Castronaut, February 14, 2013, 05:43:21 PM

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Baruch

#855
Quote from: Hydra009 on May 09, 2020, 04:04:37 PM
The scare quotes around "miracle" are a bit of a tell

Real priests gamble with loaded dice.  Snake eyes every time! ;-)

G-d plays with loaded dice - contrary to Einstein ... which pretty much nullifies all the pseudo-intellectual basis for atheism
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

OrangeDon

Evidence?  You mean -- sunsets, flowers, and babies being born isn't enough?  :D

Mike Cl

Quote from: OrangeDon on April 13, 2021, 01:11:53 PM
Evidence?  You mean -- sunsets, flowers, and babies being born isn't enough?  :D
Don, one of my minor hobbies is doing Jesus research.  I have a degree in history and taught it for 38ish years and so I tend to like most history topics.  Anyway, I have done enough studying to convince myself that Jesus did not actually exist and that he is a mashup of many different avatars of that time period.  What ended up being the final compelling element of the 'history' of Jesus is that not a single writer wrote about the guy during his proposed lifespan.  If Jesus existed Philo would have wrote about him!  BTW, Richard Carrier is one of my favorite writers on the subject.  Anyway, Don, what are your thoughts on that subject?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

aitm

Quote from: OrangeDon on April 13, 2021, 01:11:53 PM
Evidence?  You mean -- sunsets, flowers, and babies being born isn't enough?  :D
I got your sarcasm.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

OrangeDon

Mike CL:  Anyway, Don, what are your thoughts on that subject?
100% Agreement.  You are correct that there wasn't one writer, historian, official scribe, known author...NOBODY contemporary to the time that the mythical Jesus would have lived, ever wrote one word about him.  Not one.  Only the other mythical people (NT gospels) and those are already highly suspect and often inconsistent.  But what can you expect when they didn't actually record anything in written form until at least three decades would have passed after Christ's alleged death.  I can't give you accurate, word for word information about a TV show that I watched yesterday.  I can only imagine how bad my recall would be about "Jesus said....THIS" some 3 or more decades later!  I mean, Matthew and Luke totally screwed up recounting the birth of Christ -- each tying it to an event, one claiming Christ was born before 4 BCE (for Herod to be king of Israel, because Herod died 4 BCE; see Matthew 2:1) and one claiming that he was born after 6AD (when Quirinius was governor of Syria; see Luke 2:1-7).  So much for the inerrant word of god... that is a one-decade, mutually exclusive gap.  So, yeah, it really is utter nonsense.  Hence, my sarcasm about the believers today who claim that beautiful sunsets, babies being born, lovely, pretty flowers, etc, are "all the proof you need that god is real and he created all of this."  Completely void of any common sense and the ability for critical thinking.

Mike Cl

Quote from: OrangeDon on April 20, 2021, 11:05:13 AM
Mike CL:  Anyway, Don, what are your thoughts on that subject?
100% Agreement.  You are correct that there wasn't one writer, historian, official scribe, known author...NOBODY contemporary to the time that the mythical Jesus would have lived, ever wrote one word about him.  Not one.  Only the other mythical people (NT gospels) and those are already highly suspect and often inconsistent.  But what can you expect when they didn't actually record anything in written form until at least three decades would have passed after Christ's alleged death.  I can't give you accurate, word for word information about a TV show that I watched yesterday.  I can only imagine how bad my recall would be about "Jesus said....THIS" some 3 or more decades later!  I mean, Matthew and Luke totally screwed up recounting the birth of Christ -- each tying it to an event, one claiming Christ was born before 4 BCE (for Herod to be king of Israel, because Herod died 4 BCE; see Matthew 2:1) and one claiming that he was born after 6AD (when Quirinius was governor of Syria; see Luke 2:1-7).  So much for the inerrant word of god... that is a one-decade, mutually exclusive gap.  So, yeah, it really is utter nonsense.  Hence, my sarcasm about the believers today who claim that beautiful sunsets, babies being born, lovely, pretty flowers, etc, are "all the proof you need that god is real and he created all of this."  Completely void of any common sense and the ability for critical thinking.
One of the first things I noticed about Jesus and the bible were the inconstancies in the Jesus story.  I read many, many christian 'scholars' explain it away by saying that it was recalled decades (or longer) after his death.  So, of course, there would be inconstancies; that is to be expected.  But that the story was more or less, true.  My thought was that if a creator god kept screwing up his creation (a perfect creation that he kept getting wrong) and had to make attempt after attempt to right his wrongs, (for example, the garden of eden, Noah and the flood, the tower of babble, etc.), and those also failed.  These tales have all the ear marks of myth and legend--and that god is simply a human construct.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

irontiger

This is quite amusing.  In order to confirm existence an atheist first wants evidence.  However, whatever exist that is beyond our capabilities to sense and perceive will exist.  Therefore without evidence it can not be confirmed what does exist does not exist

Mike Cl

Quote from: irontiger on July 22, 2021, 11:12:05 PM
This is quite amusing.  In order to confirm existence an atheist first wants evidence.  However, whatever exist that is beyond our capabilities to sense and perceive will exist.  Therefore without evidence it can not be confirmed what does exist does not exist
Well, papertiger, it would be nice if you could string together a couple of cogent thoughts together.  Oh, I forgot.  You're a theist so that is just not possible.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Blackleaf

Quote from: irontiger on July 22, 2021, 11:12:05 PM
This is quite amusing.  In order to confirm existence an atheist first wants evidence.  However, whatever exist that is beyond our capabilities to sense and perceive will exist.  Therefore without evidence it can not be confirmed what does exist does not exist

Good point. So the sensible thing would be NOT to assume we know the unknowable or make blind guesses on faith, huh?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

SGOS

Quote from: irontiger on July 22, 2021, 11:12:05 PM
Therefore without evidence it can not be confirmed what does exist does not exist
Nor can it be confirmed that what does not exist, actually exists.  See?!   We are both in the same boat.  Neither one of us knows if god exists, but you use lack of confirmation as a reason to believe he does exist, while I use lack of confirmation as the explanation for why I remain neutral about what I can't know.

Shiranu

Quote from: irontiger on July 22, 2021, 11:12:05 PM
This is quite amusing.  In order to confirm existence an atheist first wants evidence.  However, whatever exist that is beyond our capabilities to sense and perceive will exist.  Therefore without evidence it can not be confirmed what does exist does not exist

This is true, however in cases where we don't have direct evidence of something's existence we can still observe the universe around "it" to examine if the unobservable has observable effects on what is around it. We also can use the laws of nature, logic and philosophy to determine the probability of it's existence.

I am going to assume you come from an Abrahamic tradition, so I will word it this way; I am not 100% sure God doesn't exist, but given the lack of any evidence, the lack of any evidence of him effecting the universe, and the fact that his existence would inherently be a logical fallacy, the odds are so astronomically low of Him being real that I live my life in a way that assumes he doesn't exist.

I "could" win the lottery by having a ticket fall out of an airplane storage bay, caught in the mouth of raven who lands on my shoulder and flies away quoting Edgar Allan Poe after placing it in my hand... but I'm not going to live in a way that presumes that is what is going to happen.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

irontiger

Quote from: Mike Cl on July 22, 2021, 11:29:56 PM
Well, papertiger, it would be nice if you could string together a couple of cogent thoughts together.  Oh, I forgot.  You're a theist so that is just not possible.

Speaking about cogent thought, your signature needs improvement, written like a bumbling atheist.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

What is evil ?  What is there to prevent ?

Then he is not omnipotent,

How did you confirm this ?

Is he able but not willing?

Willing to do what ?

Then whence cometh evil?

Again what is evil ?

Is he neither able or willing?

Again able or willing to do what ?

Then why call him god?

Who are you referring to ?  What are the attributes of it ?

trdsf

Quote from: irontiger on July 23, 2021, 05:41:50 PM
Speaking about cogent thought, your signature needs improvement, written like a bumbling atheist.
Ah yes, it's always good to start off with trolling.  Do you want to be taken seriously, or are you just dicking around until you break the rules enough to be banned?

Quote from: irontiger on July 23, 2021, 05:41:50 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
What is evil ?  What is there to prevent ?
Not actually relevant, but if you insist, I suggest 'evil' is 'something deleterious to human existence, either individually or as a group', as a placeholder definition.  No definite act needs to be specified because that is an irrelevant tangent.  Every human being can think of some act they consider evil, and it actually doesn't matter what the specific act is.

Quote from: irontiger on July 23, 2021, 05:41:50 PM
Then he is not omnipotent,
How did you confirm this ?
It's inherent of the definition of omnipotence.  If an action is not self-contradictory or logically impossible, then the inability to do an act means that the entity is not omnipotent.  It's just plain English.

As for the rest of your comment, you know perfectly well what the subject of conversation is and comments like "willing or able to do what" can only be interpreted as deliberate trolling, or unspeakable stupidity.

Do try harder, thanks.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Mike Cl

Quote from: irontiger on July 23, 2021, 05:41:50 PM
Speaking about cogent thought, your signature needs improvement, written like a bumbling atheist.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

What is evil ?  What is there to prevent ?

Then he is not omnipotent,

How did you confirm this ?

Is he able but not willing?

Willing to do what ?

Then whence cometh evil?

Again what is evil ?

Is he neither able or willing?

Again able or willing to do what ?

Then why call him god?

Who are you referring to ?  What are the attributes of it ?
Take it up with Epicurus--I copied it from him.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Okay, iron, are you here to hold actual conversations or to simply troll.  I'll be glad to discuss my views if you are willing to do the same.  If you are serious, why not follow the rules and go to the intro page and intro yourself.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?