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Do animals "think"

Started by Glitch, March 24, 2014, 07:43:10 PM

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SGOS

#105
I had a kennel my golden retriever eventually came to detest. Years before, he would run away and be gone for three days.  It was a welded frame put together by high school shop class.  I bought some heavy gauge fencing known as horse fence.  He chewed on it until he pulled it apart and created a hole big enough to escape.  I took him about a week.  So I invested in chain link.  He chewed and bent it pretty bad, but couldn't go through it.  So he simply did it the old way and dug under it.  So I poured a cement slab.  Then he learned to climb chain link, which was five feet in height.  So I built a lid over the kennel.  I became obsessed in a war of wills.  And I eventually won.  He was neutered and had gotten older and less rebellious, and my wife pointed out that when we left him out of the kennel, he would just lay on deck and made sure the deer didn't eat our grass.  He would just chase them off the lawn and into the trees, but was content to stay on the lawn, himself.  So I decided to quit penning him up.  He stayed on the deck after that.  Maybe he decided I was smarter than him.  Actually, I think he just became less rebellious.

 

Baruch

We had a cat once, who could push the doorbell at either front or back door, to be let in.  It learned this by observing us apparently ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

gentle_dissident

Just this morning, one of our cats was knocking on our bedroom window like the cops. I have no idea how she's physically able to do that. The rest of them meow at the window. As far as I can tell, they wait for us to stir before they ask to be let in.

Hijiri Byakuren

One of my cats, Sturm, understands how doors work. Fortunately most of ours have knobs, and none of them have handles, but there is a sliding door to my game room that he can and will open if it's not latched.


Fair and balanced (like Fox News).
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

Atheon

Quote from: SGOS on February 23, 2016, 03:12:12 PMhe would just lay on deck and made sure the deer didn't eat our grass.  He would just chase them off the lawn and into the trees, but was content to stay on the lawn, himself.  So I decided to quit penning him up.  He stayed on the deck after that.  Maybe he decided I was smarter than him.  Actually, I think he just became less rebellious.
Just like a person, he got less rebellious when older and started saying "Get off my lawn!"
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

SGOS

Quote from: Atheon on February 23, 2016, 10:02:12 PM
Just like a person, he got less rebellious when older and started saying "Get off my lawn!"

His urgency in chasing the deer off the lawn always made me wonder.  It was like his life's mission.  I'd be on the deck, he would be sleeping, and suddenly there would be this flurry of commotion, snarling, barking, and his claws would briefly slip on the deck, like a car that peels rubber before gaining momentum.  The deer would be well on their way by that time, but he would bark at them a few times from the tree line, and then do a quick trot back to the deck, seemingly in control of emotional state once again, and looking satisfied with a job well done.

I actually enjoyed having the deer around, and besides his efforts at keeping the yard clear, they kept coming back again and again, but I would fuss over him as if he had performed a great service for everyone in the neighborhood, because, well, he just acted like he expected to be congratulated.  It was a strange division of labor, with each member of the family providing a vital role, and taking great pride in their contribution. 

drunkenshoe

Human ability of thinking evolved to reach an awareness of itself independent from the nature it exists in. It's aware of being aware of itself and that nature, in that nature. That intelligence is also what alienates human from its nature increasingly. It has the biggest price. It has the consequences to threaten its very own existence.

Other animals do not have that 'handicap'. They are aware of themselves in that nature, but they don't have an awareness of themselves or that nature indepedently, nor the knowledge produced by that awareness. 

They think. They don't just think, they also have their own cultures, sub cultures, civilisations.

As humans have never considered any other animals on the planet as 'thinking' animals, they did not bother to produce words to describe that thinking and that culture. We need a new vocabulary to define and describe animal civilisations.

We need a new concept of 'thinking' to describe animal thinking.





"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

chill98

Quote from: drunkenshoe on February 24, 2016, 06:00:54 AM

They think. They don't just think, they also have their own cultures, sub cultures, civilisations.


Could you give me some examples of animal culture and civilizations?

gentle_dissident

Quote from: chill98 on February 24, 2016, 02:42:16 PM
Could you give me some examples of animal culture and civilizations?
Remember when you were taught about bonobos in school? Wait, that was chimpanzees. I wonder why they didn't teach us about bonobos.

I'm pretty sure I got taught revisionist history, so I may have a skewed view of homo sapiens culture. However, I know that if I order within the next 15 min, I'll get 2 for 1, and will only have to pay separate shipping and handling. Man, it's confusing being a human.

chill98

Quote from: gentle_dissident on February 24, 2016, 03:01:28 PM
Remember when you were taught about bonobos in school? Wait, that was chimpanzees. I wonder why they didn't teach us about bonobos.
Thats behavior, not culture.


drunkenshoe

#115
Quote from: chill98 on February 24, 2016, 02:42:16 PM
Could you give me some examples of animal culture and civilizations?

If you are expecting me to name you some civilisations as we do in human history, I think you completely misundertood my point. As I said we don't have the vocabulary, because we see ourselves as the only standard. We are not. Yes, the concepts civilisation and culture seems bizarre to use here, but that's the whole point in my opinion. But if you take these concepts and try to apply it as we use it, sure it would sound 'ridiculous'. Exactly like the concept of 'thinking' and 'consciousness'. Umbrella concepts anyway.

Insects do have their own 'civilisation', they have their own 'cultures'. Also primates. Birds. Cats. Just going random. I am not talking about mumbo jumbo, but real lives of real living things.

Human species -or its intelliegence- is not some 'goal' determined by the evolution. We are here and have these traits; this intelligenece just by pure chance. Random. There is countless scales of life and intelliegence, perceptions of nature -we are just one of them-  in just this tiny speck of a planet. But we are not the 'the ones'. There are no 'the ones'.   




"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

gentle_dissident

Quote from: chill98 on February 24, 2016, 03:13:29 PM
Thats behavior, not culture.
Sorry, behavior is part of culture.

drunkenshoe

Quote from: gentle_dissident on February 24, 2016, 03:28:47 PM
Sorry, behavior is part of culture.

I was writing that exact same thing.
"science is not about building a body of known 'facts'. ıt is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good." - tp

Mike Cl

Quote from: chill98 on February 24, 2016, 02:42:16 PM
Could you give me some examples of animal culture and civilizations?
Wolf pack; elephant herds; chimp tribes (or whatever they are called); ant colonies--I could go on.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

SGOS

Quote from: gentle_dissident on February 24, 2016, 03:01:28 PM
Remember when you were taught about bonobos in school? Wait, that was chimpanzees. I wonder why they didn't teach us about bonobos.

From what little I know, if you want to have thorough discussion on bonobos, it will necessitate a lot of discussion on bonobo sex.  Many administrators, teachers and parents might see bonobos as the perverts of the animal kingdom, and would shy away from the subject.