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Do animals "think"

Started by Glitch, March 24, 2014, 07:43:10 PM

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chill98

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 17, 2016, 11:14:33 PM
When in college, one of the hallmark distinctions between human and animal was the ability to make tools.  Then it was discovered that chimps make tools to eat termites with.  And the race was on.  Now it is well known that many, many animals make tools.  And it has been shown that crows/ravens and monkeys can make tools to solve new problems.  I'm sure others as well, can do that.  I have lived with cats and dogs and know that they can think, as well.  As time passes, more and more evidence will turn up to prove this even more.
Yeah, I am aware of some of this but hasn't the argument against it because it seems to be learned behavior passed along?  Select groups of chimps using tools for termites but not rocks to pound nuts open like different groups.

Somewhat discussed here with the crows being the topic:
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-wild-crows-use-tools-on-camera-20151223-story.html

And then there is this one, unresolved as far as I know:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201112/scientific-mystery-do-wild-baboons-kidnap-puppies-pets

Mike Cl

Quote from: chill98 on February 18, 2016, 12:46:28 PM
Yeah, I am aware of some of this but hasn't the argument against it because it seems to be learned behavior passed along?  Select groups of chimps using tools for termites but not rocks to pound nuts open like different groups.

Somewhat discussed here with the crows being the topic:
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-wild-crows-use-tools-on-camera-20151223-story.html

And then there is this one, unresolved as far as I know:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201112/scientific-mystery-do-wild-baboons-kidnap-puppies-pets
I've not done any research, except with the channel changer, but I seem to remember that parrots can use tools.  Rats can figure out how to open several types of traps.  I'm sure dolphins can use tools as well.  As far as 'learned behavior', doesn't some thinking have to go into learning said behavior?  I'm sure monkeys are not genetically born with the ability to use rocks to open nuts.  It's learned, and therefore thought about.  People just seem very reluctant to give other animals the ability to think.  We simply want to be 'special'--as god intended.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

SGOS

I think man is so enamored with his intelligence that he is unable to attribute it to animals.  We appear to ourselves to be smarter, and we probably are when measured using the tools we invent for that.  For some reason, we sometimes forget that intelligence is a scale, and composed of various aspects.  There is no reason I've seen that suggests that intelligence bottoms out at the low end of what used to be described as a human idiot, and cannot continue downward to eventually reach crickets.  Intelligence didn't suddenly appear when the first hominid appeared.  Evolution is a series of slow transitions.  Our intelligence is just evolved from what came before us.

Also, man is a transitional phase (or a possible dead end), and from what I see all around me, I'd say that man's intelligence doesn't seem all that highly developed anyway.  It's just that we are impressed with ourselves and want to perceive ourselves as unusually special.   You say your are more intelligent than a monkey?  Well, woo fuckin' hoo.  We are still severely limited and a far cry from what a better intelligence could be.

So do animals have intelligence?  Until we learn how to actually define the concept, the debate is probably about as useful as philosophical gibberish.

chill98

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 18, 2016, 01:33:22 PM
I've not done any research, except with the channel changer, but I seem to remember that parrots can use tools.  Rats can figure out how to open several types of traps.  I'm sure dolphins can use tools as well.  As far as 'learned behavior', doesn't some thinking have to go into learning said behavior?  I'm sure monkeys are not genetically born with the ability to use rocks to open nuts.  It's learned, and therefore thought about.

I don't do research myself, just some observations.  And like you, those videos of various animals doing things we don't expect interests me.  But I can't ignore the counter-arguments; is it abstract thought or learned behavior?

Do the rats disable the trap because they might come back tomorrow and get another treat?  Getting over an obstacle is different than applying that to 'tomorrow'.  These are trained rats with a continued expectation, yet it never produces that 'what about tomorrow' event. That 'hey this is a hassle so I am going to get rid of this obstacle slowing me from my goal'.  They run the race for the food.  People, going back in time, removed obstacles from the trading route.  They marked the trails for those who would come later, and so on.

Handing an elephant a brush and supplying the paint and paper is different than going out and gathering the different colors to blow a handprint outline showing Killroy was here.  If that elephant drew a stick figure of the zookeeper carrying the bucket of treats, well yeah, then it becomes a cave painting.

But they dont.

As much as I hate it, I cannot show beyond a doubt, that animals have that abstract thought process.  Even that dog example I gave of my own 'Wow' event in real life.  The dog couldn't do it again.  We still ate popcorn, and the dogs still got their pieces handed out.  She tried to remember how she did it, but she never achieved that success again.  A fleeting moment of abstraction I guess.

stromboli

To "think" implies being able to observe and act on observations. I've owned several dogs over the years. Dogs can think. They pick up on cues, verbal, non verbal and observed and act on them. My dog knows when I get the car keys and put my hat on I am going somewhere and gets excited, because he will likely go with.

He learns by observation and learns to act accordingly. He knows not to go around a tree to tangle the lead when walking, and many other observationally learned actions. He thinks. I have no doubt of it. Elephants have learned certain humans will help them when hurt. Others animals as well. Works for me.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: stromboli on February 19, 2016, 12:55:30 PM
To "think" implies being able to observe and act on observations. I've owned several dogs over the years. Dogs can think. They pick up on cues, verbal, non verbal and observed and act on them. My dog knows when I get the car keys and put my hat on I am going somewhere and gets excited, because he will likely go with.

He learns by observation and learns to act accordingly. He knows not to go around a tree to tangle the lead when walking, and many other observationally learned actions. He thinks. I have no doubt of it. Elephants have learned certain humans will help them when hurt. Others animals as well. Works for me.

Yeah, my sister once had a cat. It was a female. She learned how to open any door in the house as long as it was not locked. She knew if she was on one to side she had to push, on the other side, to pull. Even patio doors, which slide sideways, she  learned how to open them. She was also fearless towards dogs. Once on a visit, I saw her gunning for a dog which had the misfortune of venturing on my sister's lot. I was told that was not unusual on the cat's part, she regularly chased dogs around the neighborhood.

Nonsensei

And on the wings of a dream so far beyond reality
All alone in desperation now the time has come
Lost inside you\'ll never find, lost within my own mind
Day after day this misery must go on

Mike Cl

Abstract thought.  What is the evidence of that for any of it by any animal on this planet?  I suppose since I do it and can communicate that idea to others, then we can all experience abstract thought.  But can my dog do the same?  I don't know.  He/she can't tell me.  But I swear that at times, when I see them sitting there, gazing out the window, turn to me, look at me for a moment, and then go back to gazing, that they could be thinking abstract things.  How could be ever know?  For me, I think my dogs can think--and in all ways that that means.  Do they plan for the future?  I don't know.  But they do know when dinner time is and remind me if it is late.  Do they bury their rubber bones in the back yard?  And do they then dig them up again days/weeks later and bring them in?  Yes. 

Ants build aphid farms.  Is that evidence of planning for the future?  How does one ask an ant?  But I'd say that that is damned good planning.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

chill98

Quote from: stromboli on February 19, 2016, 12:55:30 PM
To "think" implies being able to observe and act on observations. I've owned several dogs over the years. Dogs can think. They pick up on cues, verbal, non verbal and observed and act on them. My dog knows when I get the car keys and put my hat on I am going somewhere and gets excited, because he will likely go with.

He learns by observation and learns to act accordingly. He knows not to go around a tree to tangle the lead when walking, and many other observationally learned actions. He thinks. I have no doubt of it. Elephants have learned certain humans will help them when hurt. Others animals as well. Works for me.

Pavlov's dog.   Zookeepers can demonstrate the same and that is learned behavior, not freethought.  However, a different example from 2006:

https://www.purplemartin.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4311

Quote from: articleHe said the swallows would flutter by the motion detectors until the door opened and even would do so as a courtesy for birds on the other side who wanted to get through.
I didn't spend a lot of time looking for the original source but from memory, the 'birds on the other side' were sparrows, not even the same species.

Video - different location 8 years later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs6n4XKApqc

Dawkins on Learned Behavior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdqg-jn_tBk

chill98

Quote from: Mike Cl on February 19, 2016, 05:40:55 PM
Abstract thought.  What is the evidence of that for any of it by any animal on this planet?  I suppose since I do it and can communicate that idea to others, then we can all experience abstract thought.  But can my dog do the same?  I don't know.  He/she can't tell me.  But I swear that at times, when I see them sitting there, gazing out the window, turn to me, look at me for a moment, and then go back to gazing, that they could be thinking abstract things.  How could be ever know?  For me, I think my dogs can think--and in all ways that that means.  Do they plan for the future?  I don't know.  But they do know when dinner time is and remind me if it is late.  Do they bury their rubber bones in the back yard?  And do they then dig them up again days/weeks later and bring them in?  Yes. 

A long time ago as a kid, I noticed the dogs staring off into the distance.  Different dogs, different times and I wondered what they were wondering.  I figured out they were watching airplanes, some so far away, I could not see them without bino's.  But dogs can hear really well.  Later as a late teen/young adult I was describing this in a similar discussion like this.  One person in the group perked up, his dog did the same thing and he was going to see if there was airplanes involved.  Later that summer he found me to relay his story.  He saw the airplanes too, so he decided to take his dog to the airport.  Rough relay of the dogs response:

The dog went crazy with excitement.  Shaking, running in circles, jumping up on the fence.  It seemed he was trying to tell us (him and his girlfriend) that the dog wanted to go for a ride.  It was such a 'wow' moment for this guy, he told me him and his girlfriend were going to look into getting the dog a ride in an airplane.  And I never saw the guy again so I don't know how the story ended.   

Anyways, dogs have great hearing.  And I dont know where you live to imagine the surroundings, but what are things going on around you that the dog can hear and recognize, that you don't hear or block because its 'normal'.  Sirens?  Neighbor kids playing with their own dog in the yard 3 or 5 houses away?  A dog a 1/2 mile away barking at a jogger?  And your dog looks at you and thinks, "meh, you dont care anyways, I ain't even gonna bother..."
:smile:

Quote from: Mike Cl
Ants build aphid farms.  Is that evidence of planning for the future?  How does one ask an ant?  But I'd say that that is damned good planning.
Ants are very interesting.  Aphid and/or fungus farms.  Going out and harvesting plant material to provide the 'garden plot mulch' for a subterranean fungus farm.  Owning slaves.  Going to war. Building bridges.  Its quite a list but the caveat

I dont know that anyone genus or species does all of the above.  And I can't get around the queen issue.  She lays every egg in that domain, and these eggs produce the specialized member (a generalization).  I have seen it described as potentially a borg type organism.  Grows her own robots so to speak.

Yeah, ants are very interesting.

Baruch

Then my father as a boy, saw a war between red ants and black ants (this was just before WW II) he was horrified.  Decapitated and de-limbed bodies of the fallen.  Some have said, observing social insects, that in the long run humans will organize like they do, because evolution will demand it.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

AllRight

My dogs are smarter than most of my coworkers but it's debatable whether or not they think ( the coworkers, not the dogs)

gentle_dissident

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on March 24, 2014, 10:04:07 PM
Not to mention sniffing pretty ladies crotches at inappropriate times.
What would be an appropriate time?

Mike Cl

Quote from: gentle_dissident on February 20, 2016, 09:13:20 PM
What would be an appropriate time?
i would ask further, gentle, is there really an inappropriate time for sniffing?????
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Atheon

We once added a new latch mechanism to our garden gate to keep our dog from escaping. I watched as our dog carefully studied it, and was soon (within a few minutes) able to figure out a way to escape.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca