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Do animals "think"

Started by Glitch, March 24, 2014, 07:43:10 PM

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aitm

Anyone that has ever been in the company of animals for several years knows the answer to that.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

SGOS

Quote from: chill98 on February 14, 2016, 05:47:14 PM
Growing up, we raised dogs.  Popcorn was a favorite family treat at night watching movies.  4 dogs sitting in a line being handed one piece of popcorn down the line, repeated at dads whim; meaning there was a time delay between rounds.  DeeDee was at the head of the line and alpha female.  Two of her pups next, male Trep, who would become alpha later, his sister Squeek, then Bear an outsider brought into the home for breeding purposes.  After about 10 mins or so, D got a weird look on her face and slowly got up and walked to the end of the line after getting a piece of popcorn.  So she got another.  Stayed there for one round, got that weird look again and headed for the front of the line.  She repeated this like 5 times, not always in a row, but consistent enough to indicate she had figured out she could get extra.  The 2nd or 3rd time, squeek got bouncy and you could tell she knew something wasnt quite right, but she couldn't quite figure it out.  Trep just got irritated at the moving around by his mom and bear happily sat at the end, not caring about anything.  It was one of the coolest things I ever seen and the only time I think I saw an animal do math without being trained.

As a side note, we had a lot of dogs, always 4 adults minimum in the house and a litter of pups. There was a routine in effect when it came to feeding the dogs.  Everyone had a schedule, their own bowl and their own place to eat to ensure diets were complete and nobody got left out.  Point being DeeDee had no experience with taking another dogs food, so it wasnt something she had learned to take advantage of as alpha.

Great story.  When it comes to eating, dogs think a lot, I have not a doubt.  But they don't seem to think too much about cleaning up after themselves or watching PBS.

chill98

Quote from: aitmAnyone that has ever been in the company of animals for several years knows the answer to that.

ah, but there is always the risk of anthropomorphism, something I am vulnerable to because of my own emotional bond with animals.  But that one particular incident really struck me because of its 'math' component.  The downside is that was a domestic animal which has been selectively bred and not a wild animal.

This is an interesting wild species along the topic line:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeyguide

chill98

Quote from: SGOSGreat story.  When it comes to eating, dogs think a lot, I have not a doubt.  But they don't seem to think too much about cleaning up after themselves or watching PBS.
Most people have to be taught to clean up after themselves.  And some never quite get the hang of that.
:)

aitm

Quote from: chill98 on February 14, 2016, 07:07:09 PM
ah, but there is always the risk of anthropomorphism, something I am vulnerable to because of my own emotional bond with animals.  But that one particular incident really struck me because of its 'math' component.  The downside is that was a domestic animal which has been selectively bred and not a wild animal.

Purely anecdotal, but I have seen enough of the animal world to conclude they can think. Crows have been shown to use tools as well as monkeys and other animals. It is not my intention to prove it to anyone, but I am convinced they think quite well.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

chill98

Quote from: aitm on February 15, 2016, 08:39:03 AM
Purely anecdotal, but I have seen enough of the animal world to conclude they can think. Crows have been shown to use tools as well as monkeys and other animals. It is not my intention to prove it to anyone, but I am convinced they think quite well.
I can't prove it either, but I try to have a solid foundation.  I do think science under-represents the intelligence of animals in general.

Crows/ravens are very intelligent and I have not followed the examples closely enough to say whether I think its learned behavior or abstract thought.  The Honeyguide is remarkable in that its a parasitic reproducer.  The young dont learn the guide behavior from their parents (as far as I know) or host parent.


doorknob

I have read a few scientific articles about the study of animal intelligence. According to research they do in fact have intelligence and some animals have a remarkable amount of it.

Any one saying animals don't have or aren't intelligent has been extremely misinformed.

chill98

#82
Quote from: doorknob on February 15, 2016, 12:16:31 PM
I have read a few scientific articles about the study of animal intelligence. According to research they do in fact have intelligence and some animals have a remarkable amount of it.

Any one saying animals don't have or aren't intelligent has been extremely misinformed.
Fair point but being intelligent is different from independent/abstract thought i.e. do they think.  Lots of people train dogs to do things, but for my dog example, the dog thought of it on her own.  They were 'trained' to line up in the row and wait for popcorn.  She was the only one to get up and move position to gather more for self, and return to the first position.  That makes it much more 'abstract'.  I am here + if I move there + I can go back = 3 x benefit.

Adding:  Moving around without breaking the rules of taking food from the other dogs.  Not causing any kind of conflict within the 'pack'.  As Alpha female - though fully recognizing the people in the house were above her- just adds to the 'wow' factor for my observation.

aitm

More anecdotal from tonight. Came home from my "happy hour" and the wife was a little upset, the two older boxers were outside and the younger boxer in the back yard. Now the oldest is over 9 and the younger is 4, they have gotten into it several times over the last two years, the younger can pin the older with incredible speed, of course she is also 20 pounds larger. Now the mid (actually an american bull dog- looks similar to a boxer)is 6 years slightly lighter than the younger but about the same size, and most of the time avoids the conflicts but does get involved in protecting the older one at times.


According to the wife the older and younger got into it pretty heavy and then the mid came in and tore up the younger. Not bad I mean, some blood and some cuts but I am sure some severe bruising. So I have all three sitting apart in the living room eyeing each other and me just saying, "No…..no…..no"… The oldest just wants to be left alone, the younger wants to apologize, ( I think) and the middle one is looking like a baddass ready to kick the first fucker to move. Kinda interesting if not for the blood. Interesting to watch as they eye each other and see who moves first. You can't tell me they are not "thinking".
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

gentle_dissident

#84
Being an animal, I can attest that we do think and have emotions. I can also vouch for my cats, who aren't much into posting on the internet.

Being part of perhaps the most intelligent and emotional species on this planet, I would feel bad about inflicting distress, pain, or death on any animal.

Mike Cl

I also, have seen enough of the animal world to know that they think and solve problems.  When in college, one of the hallmark distinctions between human and animal was the ability to make tools.  Then it was discovered that chimps make tools to eat termites with.  And the race was on.  Now it is well known that many, many animals make tools.  And it has been shown that crows/ravens and monkeys can make tools to solve new problems.  I'm sure others as well, can do that.  I have lived with cats and dogs and know that they can think, as well.  As time passes, more and more evidence will turn up to prove this even more. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

AllPurposeAtheist

I'm kind of surprised that this entire thread is here for one reason,  so that the OP can go find his/her former religion teacher for the purpose of rubbing it in their nose that we think that animals can think..
QuoteFinally some intelligent replies. My friend on Faceboobs mentioned something about Crows and how intelligent they are... I'm secretly massively collecting as much information as possible so that I can write up like... a 300 page book on legitimate proof as to why animals "Think" as humans do. Then give it to my old Religion teacher and rub it in her face that I actually remembered that fight from like... 5 years ago and intend to make sure she no longer misinforms her students about animals.
Report to mo

Damned..So much energy wasted on someone else's petty vendetta..
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

gentle_dissident

Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist on February 18, 2016, 11:49:11 AM
I'm kind of surprised that this entire thread is here for one reason,  so that the OP can go find his/her former religion teacher for the purpose of rubbing it in their nose that we think that animals can think..
Damned..So much energy wasted on someone else's petty vendetta..
The good fight is never petty.

chill98

Quote from: aitm on February 17, 2016, 08:53:26 PM
More anecdotal from tonight.

According to the wife the older and younger got into it pretty heavy and then the mid came in and tore up the younger. Not bad I mean, some blood and some cuts but I am sure some severe bruising. So I have all three sitting apart in the living room eyeing each other and me just saying, "No…..no…..no"… The oldest just wants to be left alone, the younger wants to apologize, ( I think) and the middle one is looking like a baddass ready to kick the first fucker to move. Kinda interesting if not for the blood. Interesting to watch as they eye each other and see who moves first. You can't tell me they are not "thinking".
Seen a couple alpha shifts growing up.  Most were just minor squabbles, but once in a while both dogs went All In. 

After the chaos ended, the dogs got an obedience lesson.  Leash on, heal, sit, down, stay with each dog taking turns in the down position and the other dog walked by several times to instill, You are All Submissive to People.   I dont know if it helped or not, they would calm down for a while -- several months, but was it because of their own bruises healing or our impact?  To this day, I dont know the answer.

chill98

Quote from: gentle_dissident on February 17, 2016, 09:50:39 PM
Being an animal, I can attest that we do think and have emotions.

Nice retort.  I like it.  :13: