Author Topic: Do animals "think"  (Read 12978 times)

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2016, 02:33:54 PM »
We are top predators.
I'm not. I've been a vegetarian for about 25 years.
Bottom line is you can argue the "humanity" of animal slaughter all day, but I'm satisfied with my own decisions. Carry on.
I'm used to hearing this reply. Usually in a hostile tone. I'm sure you were perfectly calm, though.

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #136 on: February 25, 2016, 02:38:14 PM »
As such, I've decided there's nothing wrong with eating meat.
OK. Was there a deductive argument?

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #137 on: February 25, 2016, 02:52:17 PM »
Yes. Why do you find it wrong? "Abstract thinking is a level of thinking about things that is removed from the facts of the “here and now”, and from specific examples of the things or concepts being thought about." If you remove every kind of myths, theological accumulation, abstract thought is very new. What we read from ancient philosophers and humanist writers have constantly been 'written' over again with new concepts and developed interpretations and in the language of our times.

The math you described above is called numeracy, not mathematical thought. (Exactly like what historians call the 'math' in 16th century Italy i.e.) The undertsanding of  literacy existed before French Revolution is very different than what we think when someone says literacy today. The languages used in the same period are defined as vernaculars today, not even languages. (European)

But if you take abstract thought as the paintings on the cave walls and pyramids, yes it is much more older. But as the topic here is about human thought, I think the abstract thought bar is pretty high, because the counter idea is animals cannot 'think'. I am saying they can and that they do not need to think like humans to be classified as thinking and that we just lack the vocabulary to classify their thought and cosnciousness.

We are in the same camp.

I didn't say I found it wrong. I asked you to define it because I thought you set the bar very high. But yes I disagree if you want to limit abstract thought to last few hundred years. Humans were plotting the course of the stars across the skies thousands of years ago and predicting where they would be years in the future. Babylonian cuneiform tablets dating between 350 to 50 BCE contained a sophisticated calculation of the position of Jupiter that relied on determining the area of a trapezium under a graph. Calculus is abstract thought. I'd classify religious origin tales as abstract thought.

ETA: I just prefer a definition a little less restrictive than how you apply yours.

Quote
abstract thinking n.
Thinking characterized by the ability to use concepts and to make and understand generalizations, such as of the properties or pattern shared by a variety of specific items or events.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 02:55:48 PM by PopeyesPappy »
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Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #138 on: February 25, 2016, 02:53:16 PM »
OK. Was there a deductive argument?
The argument is that there is a complete lack of foundation for saying that eating meat is wrong. All arguments to the contrary boil down to, "Eating meat is bad, mkay?"
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Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #139 on: February 25, 2016, 02:55:02 PM »
experiments and evidence that has been piled for years with calling it 'wishy washy', making word games as you go, counting how many people signed it (They are prominent scientists by the way, that's why it is taken seriously), because you don't like it, let's just end this conversation here, because it is really a waste of time.
Yes, and Jane Goodall, a prominent scientist holds out :

Quote from: Jane Goodall on Bigfoot/yeti
Dr. Goodall: Well, there are people looking. There are very ardent groups in Russia, and they have published a whole lot of stuff about what they've seen. Of course, the big, the big criticism of all this is, "Where is the body?" You know, why isn't there a body? I can't answer that, and maybe they don't exist, but I want them to.

Don't get me wrong, I think the untrained in science Goodall did some remarkable things with her chimp studies.  But her statement is an example of our very real confirmation bias. Hey, I have it too.

Sorry but your declaration, upon reading its content, has no actual substance.  Not your fault, not my fault but brings us back to the inability to get around 'science says there is a difference'.

Quote from: drunkenshoe
How are you 'sceptic' about a series of scientific research that has been already concluded? (2500 studies I guess.) Are you a prominent scientist on the field and find the conclusion invalid or wrong because you have reached another conclusion as a result of series of some other reasearch? 

Well that was a nice deflection.  I clearly said the Declaration is Wishy-washy and you interpreted it as 2500 studies; studies you haven't read but take on faith they MUST represent your position.

Post a link to your most convincing study. Not an abstract but the content of the study.  No, I am not a prominent scientist but that is a fallacious argument anyways.  Argument from authority I think its called.

Quote from: drunkenshoe
By the way, how is that dificult to read, I made it bolded 12 fonts to make it easy? That's the whole pdf. There is nothing else in the site.
Paragraphs broken up, the bullets show as some idotic numbered square AND you didnt provide the link.  You still have not provided a link to the signatories.  I dont think you have a better source.  Parroting what you've read could I suppose give credence to whether animals 'think'.  People can parrot therefore animals can think kind of logic...

Have a great day!
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 02:57:28 PM by chill98 »

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2016, 03:02:07 PM »
The argument is that there is a complete lack of foundation for saying that eating meat is wrong. All arguments to the contrary boil down to, "Eating meat is bad, mkay?"
So, you're saying, "Eating meat is good, mkay?" I hope so. I sure order and stock a lot of processed meats.

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2016, 03:06:00 PM »
Chill, I probably fall into your camp--as I think most of us do on this board.  Animals cannot think better than people.  But, it has been thought for so long that animals can not think at all.  I was taught in school that all the behaviors one saw in animals was either instinct or taught; animals were incapable of abstract thought.  Since then, things have changed.  Animals are capable of much more than just instinct and taught behaviors.  And 'taught behaviors' can become quite complicated.  My stance is that animals can think much more deeply than they have traditionally been given credit for.
Did you watch my Barn swallow video?  In the post, I was going from memory on the swallow opening the door, for what I remember as sparrow. 

That portion is very interesting.  These are two very different species with limited competition (I think sparrows will sometimes try to use a swallow nest).  If that was repeatedly observed and not just a one off, that could show an abstraction in thought.  Empathy even.  In wild birds.

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #142 on: February 25, 2016, 03:18:59 PM »
I didn't say I found it wrong. I asked you to define it because I thought you set the bar very high. But yes I disagree if you want to limit abstract thought to last few hundred years. Humans were plotting the course of the stars across the skies thousands of years ago and predicting where they would be years in the future. Babylonian cuneiform tablets dating between 350 to 50 BCE contained a sophisticated calculation of the position of Jupiter that relied on determining the area of a trapezium under a graph. Calculus is abstract thought. I'd classify religious origin tales as abstract thought.

OK. I can accept this for the purpose of this thread.

But  [paraphrasing-from memory] 'anthropologists suggest that the traditional distinction between 'logical' and 'prelogical' thought is actually 'literate' and 'preliterate' thought. Doesn't matter who calculated what how many thousands years ago, you are talking about 'preliterate' periods. The reason I define abstract thought in those strict terms, because we reached a standardisation in education and languages after the French Revolution and the accumulated written culture that caused -or triggered- the abstract thought starts with the written culture -coming from the invention of printing press. Abstract thought is a consequence of literacy as we know. And as I said above, there is no literacy before FE as we understand. (Hence the birth of modernism afterwards, a completely different world in every level.)

There is no abstract thought in let's say 16th century in terms of what we had it in 19 or in 19th century as we have in 21st.




« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 03:24:28 PM by drunkenshoe »

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #143 on: February 25, 2016, 04:34:17 PM »
So, you're saying, "Eating meat is good, mkay?" I hope so. I sure order and stock a lot of processed meats.
It's not even "Eating meat is good, mkay?" Eating meat is morally neutral, neither good nor evil. The only real reason one would think it were evil is if there was some principle that makes it evil, but I don't have to buy into the principle at all. It's the same way with sin — "sin" only exists to people who seriously believe in a god that may be disobeyed.
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Offline josephpalazzo

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2016, 05:20:14 PM »
Did anybody ever have rabbit cacciatore? Hmmm, just delicious...

Offline Baruch

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2016, 05:40:54 PM »
There is animal rights ethics to be considered ;-)  But I wouldn't take that too far.

I have had rabbit, but not since I was 5 years old.  My father shot it and my mother skinned and cooked it.  But not cacciatore style.

I like Shoe's distinction ... pre-logical equals pre-literate and logical equals literate.  So for most smart non-humans, they are pre-logical.  Thank goodness, or the animals would kill and eat us, and wear our skins!  But for some apes, they have been shown to be able to learn symbolic literacy, and can make original sentences, they aren't "parroting".  So for those few apes who have been put thru the Devil's Island of primate research, they have moved from pre-literate to literate.  In the wild they are still pre-literate.  Remember, apes have a little biological problem, some small bone we have that they don't that limit their speech complexity.  We had complex speech before we had writing.  I certainly think, that before writing at the latest, and before complex language at the earliest, humans were pre-literate apes ... though with greater potential.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 05:46:41 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #146 on: February 25, 2016, 05:51:38 PM »
I feel that a lot of people are reluctant to see thought, sensitivity, reflection, and emotion in animals because they want to eat them guilt free. It seems every time I've brought up slaughterhouses, people run.

I am comfortable with being an omnivorous predator.  When I predate on humans, even indirectly, I am a criminal.  At least indirectly, all humans are predators, particularly on their own kind.  The system of predation we call society ... including the creating and raising of new victims/predators ... we call child care.  We are much like wolves, and our domesticated dogs agree.
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Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #147 on: February 25, 2016, 07:18:53 PM »
I am comfortable with being an omnivorous predator.  When I predate on humans, even indirectly, I am a criminal.  At least indirectly, all humans are predators, particularly on their own kind.  The system of predation we call society ... including the creating and raising of new victims/predators ... we call child care.  We are much like wolves, and our domesticated dogs agree.
I'm an unwilling participant in the society of the USA. I try to give and help rather than take and hinder. I don't understand why someone would want a dog as a pet. However, a guy said to me just the other day that he doesn't like cats because he can't order them around. I wondered how he treats people. My cats do what they want and are courteous as well. I feed them meat because they need it to live. I do not. Killing other animals for my meal would be cruelty. I'll get a thread later. I'm on my dinner break at Burger King.

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #148 on: February 25, 2016, 09:19:24 PM »
Last I checked we were still omnivores. Got omnivore teeth, omnivore digestive tract, our poop is omnivore poop. Ruminants have different teeth, different digestive systems. You can consume vegetarian all you want, that does not change the fact that we are omnivores just like your grizzly bear (top predator) and feral hogs  and whatnot. Our digestive system is designed to digest meat. Grizzly bears can eat a variety of edibles- they will eat berries and other forage, but they prefer meat.

Yakut Siberian indigenous people, Inuits, Laplanders and other tribes in Northern climes also subsist largely on meat diets.

Vegetarianism is a choice, period, and nothing else. Evolution and mother nature made us omnivores and up until the 20th century there was never an issue about it. It was people like John Harvey Kellogg (the corn flakes guy) that pushed vegetarianism. It is by the way practiced by the 7th Day Adventists. They are responsible for a lot of the press about vegetarianism.

Repeat: evolution and nature made us omnivores. Blame evolution. Rabbit Cacciatore?  Mmmmm.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 09:22:03 PM by stromboli »

Offline Baruch

Re: Do animals "think"
« Reply #149 on: February 25, 2016, 11:06:20 PM »
I'm an unwilling participant in the society of the USA. I try to give and help rather than take and hinder. I don't understand why someone would want a dog as a pet. However, a guy said to me just the other day that he doesn't like cats because he can't order them around. I wondered how he treats people. My cats do what they want and are courteous as well. I feed them meat because they need it to live. I do not. Killing other animals for my meal would be cruelty. I'll get a thread later. I'm on my dinner break at Burger King.

I grew up with dogs and cats.  But I simply am unable to provide the "walks" that dogs need.  Cats can be kept indoors in some cases.  And as a follower of Bastet myself ... I would agree with their self appraisal ;-)

You need to carefully mind your proteins if you are vegetarian, or you will be malnourished.  But it can be done with appropriate supplements from the Health Food store.  On the other hand, Kellogg was a maniac and Hitler was a vegetarian.  The movie "Road to Wellville" is a good expose about the good Dr Kellogg.  He was a flake himself ;-)
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