Author Topic: Debunking Horus/Jesus  (Read 6393 times)

Offline Solomon Zorn (OP)

Debunking Horus/Jesus
« on: March 19, 2014, 06:16:47 AM »
I almost put this under Solitary's "Pagan Myths" thread, but that one has gotten somewhat lengthy and off-topic.
For the video Solitary posted on the subject, go here: http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=1797.0

I hated to read this, but I think the Horus myth connection to the Jesus myth may be severely overstated. The writer is a Christian, and not all of what he says do I buy, but he makes some good points. His scholarship is a little better than what I've seen on the other side of the topic. But I'm an uneducated hick, so who am I to say.


http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/10/25/horus-manure-debunking-the-jesushorus-connection/


Doesn't mean Jesus isn't just as much a myth, however, as Horus and Friends. Just that he's probably not as much a copy of Horus as many of us were lead to believe.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 08:40:09 AM by Solomon Zorn »
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline Solomon Zorn (OP)

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 06:25:30 AM »
Try to ignore the religiosity of his site though and see if his deconstruction of the myth connection isn't relatively sound.
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Offline SGOS

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 09:16:22 AM »

I hated to read this, but I think the Horus myth connection to the Jesus myth may be severely overstated.

It might be, I've read a couple of these attempts to debunk the "Borrowed Stories" claims, and while I'm not an expert enough to know the actual stories under question, I'm cautious enough to take both the theist defense and the atheist accusation with a grain of salt.  I suppose I could do my own lengthy research and decide for myself, but the fact is I don't care, because the issue lies irrelevant to the existence issue.  At least, it does so until someone makes the accusation.  As an atheist, I don't quickly bring up the Horus connection.  I'm not confident enough about aspects of it (like the virgin birth).

However, one cannot debunk the Horus connection and claim that the "Borrowed Stories" claim is invalid.  I do know from a Philosophy of Religion class years ago, that there are many concepts of Christianity that resemble many religions that came prior.  And that's exactly what one would suspect when religions are built upon other religions and evolve into a new name for the same old superstitious thinking.  In fact, in one variation of the theist apology, the Borrowed Stories are explained by Jesus traveling to India during those years when he disappears from the Bible, and taking parts of that religion to incorporate into his own teachings.

None of this matters.  Whether Jesus actually existed doesn't matter (unless it can be proven otherwise).  What matters is that the New Testament (as well as the old) is filled with self contradictory tales of impossible events, and it fails as a credible source of information.

We are left facing the critical issues:  Does God exist?  Does Jesus exist?  And the bottom line is that there is no credible evidence to support either one.  I just don't need to argue any further than that.

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 12:01:22 PM »
I tend to agree that the Jesus-Horus thing is overstated. There are plenty of similar myths to borrow from, and the concept of rebirth/resurrection was well established in various cultures of the time. The more direct connection is through Mithraism



"Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as 'the Way,' 'the Truth,' 'the Light,' 'the Life,' 'the Word,' 'the Son of God,' 'the Good Shepherd.' The Christian litany to Jesus could easily be an allegorical litany to the sun-god. Mithras is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Midnight services were found in both religions. The virgin mother...was easily merged with the virgin mother Mary. Petra, the sacred rock of Mithraism, became Peter, the foundation of the Christian Church."

Because of its evident relationship to Christianity, special attention needs to be paid to the Persian/Roman religion of Mithraism. The worship of the Indo-Persian god Mithra dates back centuries to millennia preceding the common era. The god is found as "Mitra" in the Indian Vedic religion, which is over 3,500 years old, by conservative estimates. When the Iranians separated from their Indian brethren, Mitra became known as "Mithra" or "Mihr," as he is also called in Persian.


Mithraism was practiced by the Roman soldiers. It is an easy connection to make, and the similarities are striking.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:03:45 PM by stromboli »

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2014, 01:15:40 PM »
Yeah, I didn't really take to the Horus thing.  Mithra seems like a better bet for my money.

Offline Solomon Zorn (OP)

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 03:14:04 PM »
I wouldn't counton Mithra either: http://www.strangenotions.com/exploding-mithras-myth


It's another Christian site, so it's going to be biased, but he also makes good points. Not as convincing as Sorensen on the Horus debate, but I'm still not using Mithra in any arguments with my Right-Wing-Radical-Christian-Uncle Bill. He'll look it up.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 03:17:14 PM by Solomon Zorn »
If God Exists, Why Does He Pretend Not to Exist?
Poetry and Proverbs of the Uneducated Hick

http://www.solomonzorn.com

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2014, 11:50:23 AM »
The Horus-Jesus connection is not based on what I would call scholarship.
Atheists are not anti-Christian. They are anti-stupid.--WitchSabrina

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 12:49:49 PM »
I wouldn't counton Mithra either: http://www.strangenotions.com/exploding-mithras-myth


It's another Christian site, so it's going to be biased, but he also makes good points. Not as convincing as Sorensen on the Horus debate, but I'm still not using Mithra in any arguments with my Right-Wing-Radical-Christian-Uncle Bill. He'll look it up.

No, I wouldn't either, but in comparison Mithra seemed more plausible. That said, it's a bit like trying to argue over a couple of cartoon characters.

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 09:33:41 AM »
More important than the jesus myth borrowing from earlier myths is that uniqueness is not an indication of truth. So what if there wasn't a character like this jesus person before. It doesn't mean he nor his god was real.

Offline SGOS

Re: Debunking Horus/Jesus
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2014, 09:49:35 AM »
More important than the jesus myth borrowing from earlier myths is that uniqueness is not an indication of truth. So what if there wasn't a character like this jesus person before. It doesn't mean he nor his god was real.
I agree.  While it appears to me much of Christianity is borrowed, I don't feel a great need to construct tangential arguments over these things.  Now if there were actual proof of plagiarism that would help, but all we have are suspicious similarities.  And it doesn't make any difference if Jesus (or Mohamed for that matter) were real persons or not.  The significant issue for me is the lack of any proof that either had the ear of God, or in Jesus case, that he could actually perform miracles.