Author Topic: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah  (Read 9596 times)

Offline Plu

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2014, 11:57:41 AM »
I doubt there is a better end available once you're knee deep in the shit. That's why I'd rather call out people who think there are good reasons to start a war instead. There still seem to be far too many people who are far too eager to start this shit. And that includes all people who disagree with the idea that all sides involved in a war are responsible for the horrors that it creates, because that's the only way I see that will make people realise that it's a bad idea to start with them.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2014, 11:59:28 AM »
I doubt there is a better end available once you're knee deep in the shit. That's why I'd rather call out people who think there are good reasons to start a war instead. There still seem to be far too many people who are far too eager to start this shit. And that includes all people who disagree with the idea that all sides involved in a war are responsible for the horrors that it creates, because that's the only way I see that will make people realise that it's a bad idea to start with them.
I strongly agree with that. Too many dead people no matter how it ends.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2014, 01:58:44 PM »
I doubt there is a better end available once you're knee deep in the shit. That's why I'd rather call out people who think there are good reasons to start a war instead. There still seem to be far too many people who are far too eager to start this shit. And that includes all people who disagree with the idea that all sides involved in a war are responsible for the horrors that it creates, because that's the only way I see that will make people realise that it's a bad idea to start with them.


In case you don't know, it was England and France that declared war on Germany in Sept 1939. Are you suggesting that this shouldn't have been done, and leave Hitler to continue on his path of annexing neighboring states?

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2014, 03:30:55 PM »
It's a pity Japan was engaged in indiscriminate murder well before the US got into the war.
Exactly. Let's turn the focus a bit on Japan. Had they stayed the fuck home, none of this would have happened. This is just me talking, but if I were the emperor and cared about my people more than honor, after the first bomb went off I would have said "yep, that's it. Let's fucking surrender and stop fighting this war". To me, their complaint about the use of the bomb amounts to "America is not fighting fair, we want them to come by ground so that their soldiers can meet their doom at the hands of our schoolchildren, women and elderly; their honor demands of them that they die for their country." How do you issue that complaint with a straight face when, according to what I have read, they were arming their entire country in preparation for an iminent invasion.
My point is there's plenty of blame to go all around and it is very easy for anyone with an internet connection to point fingers. Either way, what happened in WW2 is a red herring to the subject at hand.

I am reminded of a scene towards the end of the Band of Brothers series where one of the characters, a US soldier, yells at the surrendering German army "what the fuck are we doing all the way here?!?"
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 03:34:11 PM by Shol'va »

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2014, 08:08:18 PM »
Shoe, I'm always trying to think of things to refute you (other than TWD), but it usually comes down to the fact I usually agree with you,  but do you HAVE TO make me feel guilty for being alive? :o
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Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2014, 08:21:53 PM »
It's hard deciding where to start, isn't it ;)
The problem comes from the overly simplistic view "for or against". If an objection is raised to any point at all, you're part of the problem. If you agree to all of it only then are you one of the good folks.
Politics is simply too much of a gray area, too much bullshit to go all around, and carries just enough ambiguity to justify just about any argument that it is generally not worth making enemies and holding grudges over over. Some people are awfully quick to label others based on one or another topic and dehumanize them to the point that the whole of their persona is reduced to political views.
Sounds strangely familiar to what theists do when discussing religion, isn't it?
Unfortunately any and all of us here are completely and utterly powerless to change the past.

George Carlin was absolutely brilliant.
Did you guys know he narrated the kids show Thomas and Friends? Hard to picture that, isn't it?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 08:28:33 PM by Shol'va »

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2014, 08:40:22 PM »
I must be a little stupid, because I don't see the historical revisionism in this thread you mentioned. Wiki, that's their problem. 
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2014, 08:44:37 PM »
Governments have had LOTS of practice at lying to people. It's not exactly a new idea. As much as I would like my government to be honest and tell us the whole truth and nothing but is really naive. The one truth is that they all lie about a very long laundry list of shit all the time. 
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Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2014, 08:51:12 PM »
Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama
I must be a little stupid, because I don't see the historical revisionism in this thread you mentioned. Wiki, that's their problem.
Same here. My reaction so far reading this thread has been one of, "Oh dear, Shoe has a bee up her ass again." I don't actually read anything she says when she flies off the handle like this. I just grab some popcorn and amuse myself reading the responses.


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Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2014, 08:59:37 PM »
The beginning and ending of WWII are my primary areas of interest. Have been since 1965.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2014, 09:02:27 PM »
Really? you're admitting to being that shallow?  Hmmm.. I agree with that last post mainly because it's true. But hey, maybe our government really is 100% benevolence based. ::)
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2014, 09:07:23 PM »
Quote from: AllPurposeAtheist
Really? you're admitting to being that shallow?  Hmmm.. I agree with that last post mainly because it's true. But hey, maybe our government really is 100% benevolence based. 
I beg your pardon? 
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2014, 10:31:47 PM »
Actually Shoe historical revisionism is a departure of normally accepted history, what you're attempting to do in this thread.

The standard historical model has been, since nearly the end of the war if not before, that the U.S. was the primary reason Germany was defeated and that an invasion of Japan would have been a needless blood bath that the A-Bombs avoided. While at the same time limiting the land grab of the Soviet Union who had promised the U.S. to enter the war against Japan as soon as the war in Europe were finished, which it did invading Manchuria, China just afterwards.

30-40 years later, historical revisionists came around and said: "Oh, the U.S. only dropped the bomb to show the Russians they had it and to scare them and not grab the entirety of Europe/Middle East, because they knew the U.S.S.R. had won the war on their own."

And you're own, apparently unique twist that I had never heard before "They only dropped the A-Bomb for revenge of Pearl Harbor.".

That, my friend, is historical revisionism.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 10:55:19 PM by Moriarty »
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Offline Plu

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2014, 05:04:28 AM »
Quote
The standard historical model has been, since nearly the end of the war if not before, that the U.S. was the primary reason Germany was defeated and that an invasion of Japan would have been a needless blood bath that the A-Bombs avoided.

Are you sure that's the standard historical model and not the american standard historical model?

Because I'm pretty sure I was taught in school that it was a combined effort of a whole lot of Allied countries, including Russia, working together and that none of them would have been able to win this war on their own.

Offline SilentFutility

Re: From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2014, 05:41:20 AM »
Quote from: Moriarty
Actually Shoe historical revisionism is a departure of normally accepted history, what you're attempting to do in this thread.

The standard historical model has been, since nearly the end of the war if not before, that the U.S. was the primary reason Germany was defeated and that an invasion of Japan would have been a needless blood bath that the A-Bombs avoided. While at the same time limiting the land grab of the Soviet Union who had promised the U.S. to enter the war against Japan as soon as the war in Europe were finished, which it did invading Manchuria, China just afterwards.

30-40 years later, historical revisionists came around and said: "Oh, the U.S. only dropped the bomb to show the Russians they had it and to scare them and not grab the entirety of Europe/Middle East, because they knew the U.S.S.R. had won the war on their own."

And you're own, apparently unique twist that I had never heard before "They only dropped the A-Bomb for revenge of Pearl Harbor.".

That, my friend, is historical revisionism.
The bolded parts are revisionism.
The first part is your own opinion which contradicts even the pure statistics of WW2 let alone commonly accepted historical fact.

US military deaths: 416,800. Total: 418,500.
USSR military deaths: 8,700,000 to 13,850,000. Total Deaths: 21,800,000 to 28,000,000

The USA played a hugely important role in defeating the Wermacht, but to say that they were the primary reason they were defeated is simply incorrect.