From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah

[aileron]

OK, I'm quote mining, but there is a point. Chomsky, whether you consider him a flake or not, has raised serious concerns.

The concern over the use of Agent Orange has been well established for decades, so Chomsky raised no concerns.   What he did in this article was to play fast and loose with the facts.

If the US military had done what he claimed the way he claimed it, it would have been orders of magnitude worse that what they actually did.  That doesn't reduce the irresponsibility and stupidity of the US military's use of Agent Orange, but it was nothing like his statement.

And yes, Vietnam is suffering from abnormal rate of birth defects

The article you linked does not support this position.  Unfortunately, even if true it would not be surprising since Vietnamese cities have some of the most polluted air and water in the world.  To date scientific studies investigating a link between Agent Orange exposure and human health effects could best be called inconclusive.

Believe Chomsky or not, we need to own up to our atrocities and work to solve them.

I don't think anyone here is disputing this.  The fact is most scientific studies find no link between use of Agent Orange and either an increase in cancer or an increase in birth defects, and it's not for a lack of trying to find one.  The best scientific evidence we have suggests that people would have to be exposed to levels of Agent Orange orders of magnitude greater than typical exposure before onset of heath issues.  This is not a popular statement to make, but that's the science we have before us.  The science could be wrong; it often is when dealing with human health issues.  

If there is reasonable, not perfect but reasonable scientific evidence that people in Vietnam have an increased risk of cancer or birth defects from Agent Orange exposure, then we should offer environmental remediation and compensation as part of normalization efforts.  The US has already agreed to environmental remediation of toxic chemicals at former US bases in Vietnam.

[Moriarty]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1708051/posts

Some relevant snippets if you don't care to read.

"Admiral William Leahy estimated that there would be more than 250,000 Americans killed or wounded on Kyushu alone"

"General Charles Willoughby, chief of intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur, the Supreme Commander of the Southwest Pacific, estimated American casualties would be one million men by the fall of 1946. Willoughby's own intelligence staff considered this to be a conservative estimate."

"In retrospect, the 1 million American men who were to be the casualties of the invasion, were instead lucky enough to survive the war."

"Intelligence studies and military estimates made 50 years ago, and not latter-day speculation, clearly indicate that the battle for Japan might well have resulted in the biggest blood-bath in the history of modern warfare."

"Far worse would be what might have happened to Japan as a nation and as a culture. When the invasion came, it would have come after several months of fire bombing all of the remaining Japanese cities. The cost in human life that resulted from the two atomic blasts would be small in comparison to the total number of Japanese lives that would have been lost by this aerial devastation."

"With American forces locked in combat in the south of Japan, little could have prevented the Soviet Union from marching into the northern half of the Japanese home islands. Japan today cold be divided much like Korea and Germany."

"President Truman approved the plans for the invasions July 24. Two days later, the United Nations issued the Potsdam Proclamation, which called upon Japan to surrender unconditionally or face total destruction. Three days later, the Japanese governmental news agency broadcast to the world that Japan would ignore the proclamation and would refuse to surrender. During this same period it was learned -- via monitoring Japanese radio broadcasts -- that Japan had closed all schools and mobilized its schoolchildren, was arming its civilian population and was fortifying caves and building underground defenses."

"What the military leaders did not know was that by the end of July the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel, and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battle for their homeland."

"Facing the 14 American divisions landing at Kyushu would be 14 Japanese divisions, 7 independent mixed brigades, 3 tank brigades and thousands of naval troops. On Kyushu the odds would be 3 to 2 in favor of the Japanese, with 790,000 enemy defenders against 550,000 Americans. This time the bulk of the Japanese defenders would not be the poorly trained and ill-equipped labor battalions that the Americans had faced in the earlier campaigns."

"The Japanese defenders would be the hard core of the home army. These troops were well-fed and well equipped. They were familiar with the terrain, had stockpiles of arms and ammunition, and had developed an effective system of transportation and supply almost invisible from the air. Many of these Japanese troops were the elite of the army, and they were swollen with a fanatical fighting spirit."

"Japan's network of beach defenses consisted of offshore mines, thousands of suicide scuba divers attacking landing craft, and mines planted on the beaches. Coming ashore, the American Eastern amphibious assault forces at Miyazaki would face three Japanese divisions, and two others poised for counterattack. Awaiting the Southeastern attack force at Ariake Bay was an entire division and at least one mixed infantry brigade. "

"In addition to the use of poison gas and bacteriological warfare (which the Japanese had experimented with), Japan mobilized its citizenry."

"At the early stage of the invasion, 1,000 Japanese and American soldiers would be dying every hour."

[aileron]

The only reason USA nuked Japan is because Japan managed to launch a successful sneak attack on US soil...

You completely ignore context.  WWII was madness on a global scale.  We humans killed well over 60,000,000 of our fellow humans.  More than half of them were noncombatants and a large number of the combatants were killed as prisoners of war.  Add to that the number of people we killed indirectly due to war-related causes - disease, starvation, exposure - and the number of humans killed by fellow humans is as high as 85,000,000.  In that context, the first nation to develop nuclear weapons was guaranteed to use them.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that if Germany, Japan, USSR, UK, China, or any major combatant in WWII had developed atomic weapons before the USA that they would not have used them.

The record of all combatant's blatant disregard for human life including noncombatants in that war makes this point clear.

[Moriarty]

The only reason USA nuked Japan is because Japan managed to launch a successful sneak attack on US soil...

You completely ignore context.  WWII was madness on a global scale.  We humans killed well over 60,000,000 of our fellow humans, more than half of them noncombatants and a large number of killed combatants were killed as prisoners of war.  Add to that the number of people we killed indirectly due to war-related causes - disease, starvation, exposure - and the number of humans killed by fellow humans is as high as 85,000,000.  In that context, the first nation to develop nuclear weapons was guaranteed to use them.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue that if Germany, Japan, USSR, UK, China, or any major combatant in WWII had developed atomic weapons before the USA that they would not have used them.

The record of all combatant's blatant disregard for human life including noncombatants in that war makes this point clear.

In many ways the only atrocity would have been NOT to have used them.

[Moriarty]

Why? Because you're attacking the U.S. like it is the only one guilty of anything and that it isn't a problem with humanity but a problem with governments. Or in this case one particular government. it's extremely short sighted. All governments do it, all governments will regardless of whichever asshole seizes power. You're also ignoring fact in the relevant case that no matter how bad the bombing of Japan was by going nuclear it saved lives, A LOT of lives.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

We know or should know war is about money and power.  The people who sell us war are arguably the worse the world has to offer us including murderers and child molesters and every nation has these kinds of people.  The US is a capitalistic nation, there's no getting around that, but we're hardly alone in that respect. We elect them, but all to often under false premises and they have untold wealth at their disposal to influence voters, politicians and other nations and their populations.
Own up to? What exactly does that mean to a population? Sure, we have people more than willing to admit to atrocities,  but at the same time we have people willfully ignorant along with people with untold weath working hard to mislead people and to rewrite history to suit their needs. More often than not money rules the day and the population is all to willing to turn the blind eye if it means a nice car, cheap gas and the latest gadget. That is part of the human animal and it's hardly anything new.

[Moriarty]

Why? Because you're attacking the U.S. like it is the only one guilty of anything and that it isn't a problem with humanity but a problem with governments. Or in this case one particular government. it's extremely short sighted. All governments do it, all governments will regardless of whichever asshole seizes power. You're also ignoring fact in the relevant case that no matter how bad the bombing of Japan was by going nuclear it saved lives, A LOT of lives.

Oh this is rich. You are throwing me the cheapest strawman ever. 'But why are we talking about US?! Read the thread title. What do you expect me to talk about in a thread titled "From Hiroshima to Fukushima, Vietnam to Fallujah".  Eskimos? Africans? Aliens? Lemurs in Madagascar?

And you have become nauseating with your "nuking Japan saved ' a lot of lives" bullshit. Go puke it to someone else. I'm sick of it. This conversation is over.

Yea being wrong does that to a lot of people. Why don't you post about the atrocities of the Turkish government, there is more than enough there, or are you just more content posting about what the U.S. does?

[josephpalazzo]

Tell me something, when US army bombed a surrendered Berlin and killed massive amount of people, was it trying to save Germans and prevent loss of lives again?

Absolutely not. It is a matter of record that the Allies deliberately wanted to cause as much damage as possible. However what you don't know is the rationale behind. For better or for worse, the thinking at the times was that after WW1, the vast majority of Germans did not believe that Germany had lost the war - they were fed constantly they were winning, and hardly any destruction had taken place on German soil. Hitler was of that opinion, most of the card-carrying nazi members believed so, and so other Germans. So the massive bombing that took place at the end of WW2 was exactly to send the message to the Germans that this time you will know that you have lost the war.

[Moriarty]

Tell me something, when US army bombed a surrendered Berlin and killed massive amount of people, was it trying to save Germans and prevent loss of lives again?

Absolutely not. It is a matter of record that the Allies deliberately wanted to cause as much damage as possible. However what you don't know is the rationale behind. For better or for worse, the thinking at the times was that after WW1, the vast majority of Germans did not believe that Germany had lost the war - they were fed constantly they were winning, and hardly any destruction had taken place on German soil. Hitler was of that opinion, most of the card-carrying nazi members believed so, and so other Germans. So the massive bombing that took place at the end of WW2 was exactly to send the message to the Germans that this time you will know that you have lost the war.

So true.

Also remember that the Germans themselves did it to the Netherlands and Poland when they didn't surrender fast enough for them but it's all about the U.S. <odd>

Guessing you'll want an apology for Dresden too~

Also remember I'm the least nationalist person  you will ever meet in the U.S. So I don't hold my perspective as some sort of patriot.

[aileron]

Moar, do you even know what is the reason for my reaction to people here in this thread except stromboli?

Because the only thing you people choose to do is to throw the basic propaganda at me.

How do you equate pointing out factual errors with throwing out propaganda?  Is it not enough for you for the US to face up to its real atrocities?  Must it also face up to the imagined ones too?

[Hydra009]

These people are very patiently and cordially disagreeing with you and you lash out at them and dishonestly strawman their arguments.

No, I won't apologise to anyone who doesn't have the slightest human decency to write a simple thing to own up to something like this, but instead telling me to 'stop being emotional' or 'have some tact' like you or others did.

Again you misrepresent my point and utterly miss it.  A pity, because this could have actually been a learning experience for you.  I can tolerate many things, including your infamous temper, but I cannot tolerate dishonesty.  Say hello to the ignore list, likely forever this time.

[aileron]

Oh so US had the clear and definite information that any of those countries didn't have -or definitely had- any nuclear weapons and so when they built and used the nuclear weapons their only aim was to 'end the war' and and 'saving lives'?

Where exactly did I write anything even remotely close to this?

Tell me something, when US army bombed a surrendered Berlin and killed massive amount of people, was it trying to save Germans and prevent loss of lives again?

What exactly are you referencing?  The US Army stopped bombing Berlin well before its surrender so that they would not bomb the Soviets who were staging for the Battle of Berlin.

[Shol'va]

If it makes you guys feel better, I've been written off as a US propagandist and ended up on her ignore list for the same reason, disagreeing with opinion and asking for supporting evidence :)

But I think it bears mentioning again.
Where is the data on the assertion in the article?
 If there is in fact "studies by Iraqi and American doctors showing a very high level of cancer among children, far higher than before, in the whole neighborhood of Fallujah", I would like to see those studies and it is something that should be trivial to present.

[aileron]

However, the explanation you are making here, like the whole picture context aileron offers...

I'm fairly certain you're imagining a picture that is reflected nowhere in my writing here or in my sentiments.  

I do not condone the terror bombing of civilians in WWII, period, full stop nuclear or otherwise.  

The "whole picture" I'm interested in is this:  Condemn the US for acts actually committed,, but don't leap to the conclusion that all such accusations reflect reality.  Most of the ones from Chomsky, as is the norm for him, are either wildly exaggerated or patently false.

I have no problem facing up to atrocities actually committed by this nation, but it's tiresome having to point out all the false accusations being made and there are a lot of them.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

We know or should know war is about money and power.  The people who sell us war are arguably the worse the world has to offer us including murderers and child molesters and every nation has these kinds of people.  The US is a capitalistic nation, there's no getting around that, but we're hardly alone in that respect. We elect them, but all to often under false premises and they have untold wealth at their disposal to influence voters, politicians and other nations and their populations.
Own up to? What exactly does that mean to a population? Sure, we have people more than willing to admit to atrocities,  but at the same time we have people willfully ignorant along with people with untold weath working hard to mislead people and to rewrite history to suit their needs. More often than not money rules the day and the population is all to willing to turn the blind eye if it means a nice car, cheap gas and the latest gadget. That is part of the human animal and it's hardly anything new.

I am not talking to the American population. I am talking to a bunch of people who have the claim of seeing bullshit, capable of simple reasoning, people who discuss atrocities committed around the world by other nations on a daily basis and EXPECT them to do the same when it came up about their own. Exactly like how I can sit down and talk to my Kurdish, Armenian, Alewit friends about the history and the political bullshit and the reality without confusing them or throwing each other some propaganda bullshit that we have been subjected since our child hood.

It's a rewarding experience. It reminds you that all this bullshit you can't change is aside, you actually belong to some intelligent species.

Shoe dear, I'm not going to pretend to be the enlightened one with vast knowledge of historical events and knowledge of some hidden agendas nobody else is aware of. I'm a fairly simple person. Most people are, but hate to admit it. It takes me awhile to type this crap and I usually lose track of what the hell I'm talking about in the first place.
The simple fact is we're seldom if ever consulted about matters of war and then all to often we're lied to about things skewing our opinions one way or the other and none of us are immune to that.
If you watch enough American TV you might actually believe that the bible is 100% fact and there is indeed a wild man living in the great northwest with a camera crew following him all day. Are you really expecting everyone here to be light years ahead of my own understanding of the world? I have bad news.  Most of them are dopier than me. I don't imagine it's much better anywhere else in the world.  :-$