Free will vs determinism

[Deidre32]

Free will is just religion's way of rewording our ability to choose. Religion has a way of making it seem like it's invented concepts, when it hasn't. It also cheapens the meaning behind 'free will,' when it's typically used by religious people to defend bad behaviors, that God had nothing at all to do with. Example would be 9/11. I heard many religious people say, ''well, God gives us all free will and those terrorists decided to use theirs for evil.'' LMAO!

But, if something awesome happens, that was 'God's will.' We as humans, have nothing to do with good things happening?

Free will exists, it's just our ability to choose. If there exists an almighty and all knowing God, he doesn't need to us to make excuses for ''him.''  :roll:

So, there is no difference in free will vs determinism. Although, I may choose to do something that I didn't give much thought to, and make mistakes in doing so. Not everything I do was a determination.

I love semantics.  

[aileron]

I've never spent any time worrying about whether we have free will or not...

When discussing free will, the first question to answer is:  Free from what?

[Giratina]

I've never spent any time worrying about whether we have free will or not...

When discussing free will, the first question to answer is:  Free from what?

A set path that we must go down, or a massive tree that allows us, to some degree, choose our fate.

[aitm]

Therefore freewill must exist and by extension so must God.

 :-s

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 :rollin:

therefore strawberry shortcake is supreme and by extension Mars is a candy bar.

[aileron]

I've never spent any time worrying about whether we have free will or not...

When discussing free will, the first question to answer is:  Free from what?

A set path that we must go down, or a massive tree that allows us, to some degree, choose our fate.

There's a more obvious thing we're free from... Free from coercion by a god.  We're also free from the problem of how to reconcile God's foreknowledge of our actions with the actions themselves.  In short, in terms of the original problem of free will, we're absolutely free.

As god waned in philosophy, the problem of free will morphed into a weird agglomeration of physics and cognitive science -- things philosophers are grotesquely unqualified to address.  The best evidence we have shows that our decisions are subject to physical laws.  That's not the same thing as the straw man of reductionism Christians prop up to attack physics and cognitive science.  In fact, there's considerable room in naturalistic decision-making to incorporate a totally unpredictable, indeterminate future.

[Shol'va]

The way I see it is, the conversation of free will vs determinism sometimes gets to the point where it depends how far one wants to go with the argument in terms of its most basic roots. In other words I woke up this morning and I chose what breakfast I wanted to have. I had several choices. I was free to choose in the sense that I was not coerced by anybody or anything. But, if I go back farther than that to a more basic argument, was my decision free from myself? It was not. My decision was determined by a state of mind and cravings that were themselves pre determined by taste biases an maybe nutritional deficiencies in the body, etc etc.

[Solitary]

Who is it that makes a choice, in other words who are we exactly? A physical body or a non physical body like consciousness itself in a body?  :shock:   :-s  Solitary

[Shol'va]

Current scientific evidence shows that consciousness is an emergent trait of our physical brain. If anyone believes that we can make decisions independent of this, the scientific community would like to have a word with you as to what evidence there is.

All I am saying is this discussion is by and large driven by what people perceive that free will and determinism are as concepts.
I am perfectly comfortable with either argument as long as it is demonstrated to me in a satisfactory way. But thus far I have yet to be presented with a position that does not invariably lead to "but what about this situation" type of follow up questions.

I, for one, realize that I am my brain. I am the product of my gray matter in my skull. I am a risen ape. I am the product of my environment and my upbringing, life experiences, etc. I view my own free will as my ability to make decisions without coercion of an outside agent. But inward, I realize that I am driven by determinism or deterministic mechanisms.

[Deidre32]

Current scientific evidence shows that consciousness is an emergent trait of our physical brain. If anyone believes that we can make decisions independent of this, the scientific community would like to have a word with you as to what evidence there is.

All I am saying is this discussion is by and large driven by what people perceive that free will and determinism are as concepts.
I am perfectly comfortable with either argument as long as it is demonstrated to me in a satisfactory way. But thus far I have yet to be presented with a position that does not invariably lead to "but what about this situation" type of follow up questions.

I, for one, realize that I am my brain. I am the product of my gray matter in my skull. I am a risen ape. I am the product of my environment and my upbringing, life experiences, etc. I view my own free will as my ability to make decisions without coercion of an outside agent. But inward, I realize that I am driven by determinism or deterministic mechanisms.

Great post. Only thing I slightly disagree with here is that we are driven by determinism. Sometimes we end up in circumstances whereby our determination didn't bring us there. At what point, are we responsible for the sum total of our life's circumstances and at which point, was it due to the "hand dealt to us?" Is it a combination of the two? Just something I ponder with never a solid answer. :-/

[aitm]

Unfortunately, free choice is believed to be being able to choose an action and having it come to fruition to your benefit, but that is fleeting, it in itself is guided, pushed, thwarted, prevented, and blocked by a thousand scenario's of millions of actions of other people and their "mechanisms"( lousy word for whatever word would mean ones interaction with the mechanical and electrical systems of the world). A persons accidental interference with your facebook account, someone hacking your identity, killing a deer on the road and the meat being served to your kid in a school, a thief, rapist, some idiot texting before he takes you out and leaves you in a vegetative state. Or, your choices equal to your peers, in almost every way, except you, it seems, are always left with the only horse in the race and despite your best , it never seems to equal your peers.

However, free choice is nothing except the desire to pursue an action and being able to do it. Free choice is always prohibited in some fashion by some mechanism, it could as simple as severe acne or being a slave. Simple or complicated free choice is not a choice but a will, a desire. As "sin" in the original construct is the desire and the will more than the action. The gods would proclaim that "wanting" a thing is what free will is all about, it is the basis and the foundation of the action. Free will is only the desire to act, for many that leads to actions and for some success on those desires. For the most of humanity, free will is a mean spirited, hateful, vengeful prank that makes them believe that there must be a god, for how could they have such miserable lives on their own despite their best efforts?

[josephpalazzo]

The thinking is basically this:

If the universe exists then God exists.

If objective morality exists then God exists.

If free will exists then God exists.

If ... ( fill in the blank ) exists then God exists.


God is the solution to everything. AMEN.

 :Hangman:

[Shol'va]

"God is the sewer into which all contradictions flow."
Georg Hegel

[Jason78]

I, for one, realize that I am my brain. I am the product of my gray matter in my skull.

You're a lot more than that.   If I removed your adrenal gland, it would change the way you think and act.

[Shol'va]

My point was rejecting the transcendental. If you remove my heart it would also change the way I think and act, in the sense that I would stop altogether :)

[aitm]

I, for one, realize that I am my brain. I am the product of my gray matter in my skull.

You're a lot more than that.   If I removed your adrenal gland, it would change the way you think and act.

I don't mind watching dead fish and toilet water being added to my KFC but lets not talk about removing glands eh? thats just ....wrong..