Would an unregulated free market be better for nature?

[SGOS]

Regarding the Aral Sea:

Formerly one of the four largest lakes in the world with an area of 68,000 square kilometres (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea has been steadily shrinking since the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects.

Yes, capitalism can be destructive to the environment. Thing is, command economics is like a billion times worse. And yes, child labor was a thing, but capitalism never caused a Holodomor.

Capitalism isn't a holy grail, fine, but it isn't the holy terror that is state bureaucratic socialism.

Obfuscation! Bureaucratic socialism is irrelevant to your question.  Environmental protection is not bureaucratic socialism.  In addition, you offer no evidence that bureaucratic socialism is a holy terror.  But even if you did offer such evidence, it is still irrelevant to the issue of environmental protection.

[zarus tathra]

I was bringing up the Holodomor in response to the "child labor" thing, which, of course, is irrelevant to the subject of environmentalism.

And fine, environmental protection is probably necessary. But it's inconsistent with command economics, at least as envisioned by Marxists. Marxism caused the shrinking of the Aral Sea and the bulk of the pollution that you see across China. Like I said, the Special Economic Zones are some of the cleanest urban areas in China.

And it should be obvious to everyone how "creating jobs," especially of the industrial kind, is bad for the environment. Add in the "defense" industry. And farm subsidies. And the excess population growth that welfare brings. etc. etc.

[the_antithesis]

China's special economic zones have some of the cleanest air out of any of the urban areas in China. This is in spite of their having huge amount of industrial activity per capita. The only thing that I can think of to justify this is their comparatively liberal market regulation.

Really? That's the only reason you can think of? Really?

Really?

[zarus tathra]

You tell me. No, seriously, float an alternative thesis. ANY alternative thesis.

[SGOS]

I was bringing up the Holodomor in response to the "child labor" thing, which, of course, is irrelevant to the subject of environmentalism.

Yes, it's easy to digress in these threads.

And fine, environmental protection is probably necessary. But it's inconsistent with command economics, at least as envisioned by Marxists.

It's not that it's inconsistent.  Environmental protection was simply ignored in your example.  For the same reasons it's ignored by capitalism.  There is no reason why environmental protection must be ignored in either capitalism or command economics.

Marxism caused the shrinking of the Aral Sea and the bulk of the pollution that you see across China. Like I said, the Special Economic Zones are some of the cleanest urban areas in China.  

Assuming this is true (Special Economic Zones are some of the cleanest urban areas in China), it does not indicate cause and effect.  It makes no case for unregulated industry.  A clean environment is not automatically provided for by capitalism or socialism.  Environmental protection is a separate issue.

[the_antithesis]

First, where do you get your data on the air cleanliness? That's an easy thing to claim if it's unverified.

[zarus tathra]

Highly politicized "command" economics that's created for the sake of social control rather than simple profit is wasteful and excessive and inefficient in a way that for-profit economics never can be. These state-owned companies shielded from competition run old machinery specifically because it uses more labor even if it generates like 10 times more waste. They build ginormous projects for the sake of impressing people instead of feeding them or fulfilling other needs. Of course, these utilitarian projects have to be done later, and they are, inefficiently. They subsidize factories that have no purpose and build huge numbers of tanks and accumulate massive inventories of excess product that they are never allowed to sell without explicit orders from the central planning bureau.

If a for-profit company tried any of this they'd get eaten alive in the free market.

[the_antithesis]

So you have no sources for your data. You expect us to simply take you at your word.

Why would anyone ever do that?

[SGOS]

Highly politicized "command" economics that's created for the sake of social control rather than simple profit is wasteful and excessive and inefficient in a way that for-profit economics never can be. These state-owned companies shielded from competition run old machinery specifically because it uses more labor even if it generates like 10 times more waste. They build ginormous projects for the sake of impressing people instead of feeding them or fulfilling other needs. Of course, these utilitarian projects have to be done later, and they are, inefficiently. They subsidize factories that have no purpose and build huge numbers of tanks and accumulate massive inventories of excess product that they are never allowed to sell without explicit orders from the central planning bureau.

If a for-profit company tried any of this they'd get eaten alive in the free market.

Only if waste were not profitable.  Unregulated free markets allow industries to compete without regard for waste or environmental degradation.

[the_antithesis]

Only if waste were not profitable.  Unregulated free markets allow industries to compete without regard for waste or environmental degradation.

I wouldn't bother speaking to him. I asked him a simple, straightforward question and he responded with bullshit talking points like he was standing at a pulpit. There is no conversation here. Don't waste your time with human waste.

[zarus tathra]

So you have no sources for your data. You expect us to simply take you at your word.

Why would anyone ever do that?

Look at aqicn, a service that provides real-time tracking of air pollution in China. Compare Shenzhen and Zhuhai, both Special Economic Zones, to Beijing or Nanjing. Or Zhenjiang. Etc etc etc. Like 5% of large cities in China are cleaner than the SEZ's, and almost none of them have anywhere near the heavy industry per capita that the SEZ's do. From moment to moment, the pm2.5 might be lower in Beijing than in Zhuhai, but the 2-day aggregate is almost always much higher.

[SGOS]

Only if waste were not profitable.  Unregulated free markets allow industries to compete without regard for waste or environmental degradation.

I wouldn't bother speaking to him. I asked him a simple, straightforward question and he responded with bullshit talking points like he was standing at a pulpit. There is no conversation here. Don't waste your time with human waste.

I usually don't bother with his posts.  It almost seems like he poses an outrageous question for the purpose of opening a dialog for some other ulterior purpose.  Most of the time, his opening tactic comes off as a set up to provide himself with a soapbox.  Usually it lacks enough clarity that I resist replying.  Today, I thought I'd give it a shot.  My suspicions are being confirmed.  It might help me in the future when I see his threads.

[zarus tathra]

You Democrats truly are the "last men" of industrial society.

[the_antithesis]

Look at aqicn, a service that provides real-time tracking of air pollution in China. Compare Shenzhen and Zhuhai, both Special Economic Zones, to Beijing or Nanjing. Or Zhenjiang. Etc etc etc. Like 5% of large cities in China are cleaner than the SEZ's, and almost none of them have anywhere near the heavy industry per capita that the SEZ's do. From moment to moment, the pm2.5 might be lower in Beijing than in Zhuhai, but the 2-day aggregate is almost always much higher.

There we go.

Now ask yourself, why didn't you post this in the first place instead of spout bullshit about "command" something or other? I ask you a simple question and got a robo-dweeb talking point. You're pretty good at acting like you care about political/economic issues. But when you fail to answer a direct question the first time, the cracks show in your facade.

[SGOS]

You Democrats truly are the "last men" of industrial society.

I don't know if that is supposed to be an insult, but if it's addressed to me, it's a waste of time.  I no longer affiliate myself with any party.