Would an unregulated free market be better for nature?

Started by zarus tathra, February 07, 2014, 06:13:28 PM

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zarus tathra

I know that "capitalism" is often raved about as if it's this Mount Doom of environmental destruction, but hear me out.

China's special economic zones have some of the cleanest air out of any of the urban areas in China. This is in spite of their having huge amount of industrial activity per capita. The only thing that I can think of to justify this is their comparatively liberal market regulation.

This is just one "data point," but look at this more broadly. A lot of supermarkets waste like 50% of their produce, if not a lot more, because union regulations prohibit them from cutting back on inventory and running their supermarkets optimally. In fact, a lot of supermarkets and factories would probably close down if they weren't either afraid of shitstorms or bribed to keep them open by local governments. It doesn't take that much of an imagination to think of how this could affect the environment. Then think of all the heavy industry that wouldn't exist if it weren't for defense contracts and frivolous civil engineering projects and efforts towards "job creation" and the like.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

The Skeletal Atheist

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hillbillyatheist

LMAO ask west virginia how well that worked out for them.

I'm not saying we should be communist, in fact I'd be against that too, but the idea that an unregulated market would work is bullshit. companies cut corners and shit happens like in west virginia, where many still can't drink their water.

the solution is a free market but with strict and enforced regulations.
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mykcob4

Nope not at all. There is a plethora of historical examples of abuse and exploitation by American companies that went unregulated or where regulation went knowingly unenforced.
BP
Halliburton
JPMorgan
Blackwater
Exxon/Mobil
We have nearly 2 centuries of data showing what happens when giant corporations go unregulated, and none of that data shows anything good coming of it.

AllPurposeAtheist

Unregulate all of West Virginia. Go ahead.  In 50 years or less it'll be flatter than Kansas.  :-k
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zarus tathra

link

It seems like they had some basic regulations in place that weren't enforced, as in REALLY REALLY basic ones.

QuoteHansen said that proper pollution-prevention plans would have required the company to explain the measures it had in place to contain the materials it handled, prevent spills and respond to any spills that did occur. However, Hansen's report indicated that those plans don't appear to have ever been filed with the DEP, and agency officials have not disputed that assessment.

I agree that basic regulations like that definitely have a place in our society. And you can't really say that libertarianism is "unregulated," property rights enforced by the state are a form of regulation.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.


zarus tathra

#8
Regarding the Aral Sea:

QuoteFormerly one of the four largest lakes in the world with an area of 68,000 square kilometres (26,300 sq mi), the Aral Sea has been steadily shrinking since the 1960s after the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects.

Yes, capitalism can be destructive to the environment. Thing is, command economics is like a billion times worse. And yes, child labor was a thing, but capitalism never caused a Holodomor.

Capitalism isn't a holy grail, fine, but it isn't the holy terror that is state bureaucratic socialism.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

AllPurposeAtheist

You're right pappy..
exploitation of children &adults
disregard for human life
desertification and/or flooding

Yeah, just let anyone unfettered access to the world's resources and people for short term gain.  What can possibly go wrong?
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zarus tathra

Quoteafter the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects.

This isn't about "perfect worlds." This is about giant douche vs knife in the face.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Jmpty

I wonder how many Redwoods would be left if.....I wonder what the north slope of Alaska would look like if.....I wonder how many Tigers, or Elephants, or Rhinos would be left if....


I wonder.
???  ??

AllPurposeAtheist

Quote from: "zarus tathra"
Quoteafter the rivers that fed it were diverted by Soviet irrigation projects.

This isn't about "perfect worlds." This is about giant douche vs knife in the face.
Bad drugs don't really mix with politics unless you're mayor of Toronto.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

zarus tathra

State parks are some of the worst caretakers of trees possible, they sell individual trees to loggers for like $25 dollars each. No private landowner would be that generous.

As for tigers and rhinos and stuff, there are more tigers living in captivity in China than perhaps have ever lived in the wild. That's because they sell their organs to support the tiger parks. If people farmed endangered species, they'd be as common as cattle.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Plu

QuoteAs for tigers and rhinos and stuff, there are more tigers living in captivity in China than perhaps have ever lived in the wild. That's because they sell their organs to support the tiger parks. If people farmed endangered species, they'd be as common as cattle.

That's because you can sell tiger organs to superstitious folk for lots of money. Any kind of animal that people don't attribute some kind of nonsense myth to and thus pay loads of money for would go extinct just as rapidly as the thousands of species we've already wiped out because people weren't willing to cough up money for their parts.