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A letter to Libertarians.

Started by mykcob4, February 05, 2014, 09:39:04 PM

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mykcob4

I have had discussions with various libertarians on and off this forum. I have been to many libertarians websites that contradict each other hugely.
I found this letter written by a group that investigated one so-called libertarian groups. A libertarian group that includes congressmen that claim to be libertarians.
Read the letter and click on the links to find out what libertarians really are and how they act when elected. This letter is a confrontation and dispelling of libertarianism for what it actually is. It dispels the myth of what libertarians say that they are really for. Now many of you individuals that are or claim to be libertarians, may be upset and disagree entirely with what the letter claims, but you as individuals are not the ones described here, but rather what the party actually stands for and how it acts and operates.
http://www.punkerslut.com/critiques/lib ... atism.html
I hold that libertarianism isn't about liberty but about conservative protectionism for corrupt giant corporate monopolies.
here is yet another article that actually exposes libertarianism.
http://shadow-of-mars.livejournal.com/2626.html
Here is a research article that discloses the agenda of libertarians and conservatives.
http://www.publiceye.org/lnk_antidem.html
Now I don't have anything personally against libertarians no more than I have anything personal against any conservative, but I do take exception that libertarians are for liberty. They are merely hijacking the term for their own conservative political purpose.
I can site source after source that reveals that fact.

stromboli

I for one have never seen a good definition of what Libertarian is. People like Rand Paul certainly do not echo my beliefs, and I frankly avoid discussing the issue because it is too murky for me.

Jmpty

Any website that calls itself "Punkerslut.com" is ok in my book.
???  ??

Jack89

You are obviously quite biased toward your own political agenda and seem to have a hard-on for anything resembling a conservative, in which you've included libertarians.  I think your sources, which seem dubious at best, appear cherry-picked to reflect your bias.

As a self-proclaimed libertarian, with a small "l", I'll tell you what it means to me.  The Stanford Encyclopedia says it pretty good for starters, "libertarianism, in the strict sense, is the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things."  The big part for me is self-ownership, and I think that's the big part for a lot of libertarians.  While I think government should small, only as big as absolutely necessary, and follow the principle of subsidiarity, I still think there is a necessary role for government in modern day society.  On social matters I lean liberal (in the classical sense), and don't have a desire to oppress anyone.  I watch CNN more than FOX and think Glen Beck is an opportunistic parasite.  I'm not a rich capitalist, don't hate anyone just because they're LGBT, I'm not a Christian, and have never turned in an illegal immigrant.  I even support a social safety net (Milton Friedman style) for practical reasons.  Oh, and I don't belong to the Libertarian party (hence the little "l").  I don't even know what their agenda is.

You might want to look at some other sources for your information.

Damarcus

so...libertarians are pretty much as vague and ill-defined as every other political party? Who'da thunk it?

I voted for the "bullet train for Australia" party in our last election, simply because they were the only party that bothered to actually state what they aimed to achieve if they got a representative in the senate (they wanted a bullet train in australia, in case you were wondering)
Quote from: \"Tony Harrison\""This is an outrage!"

Quote from: \"Plu\"When you can\'t wield logic, everything sounds like an insult.

AllPurposeAtheist

Nope, libertarians favor nullification to be able to nullify any federal law they don't like. Basically they want to balkanize the US into some powerless confederation of independent states.
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

Jack89

Quote from: "Damarcus"so...libertarians are pretty much as vague and ill-defined as every other political party? Who'da thunk it?
I think it's a common misconception that "libertarian" primarily refers to a political party, like democrat or republican.  Yes there is a Libertarian Party, but there's a lot of libertarians who don't associate with it.  Similarly, there's a Socialist Party in the U.S., but many socialists don't belong to it.

Libertarianism is a political philosophy, like liberalism, conservatism, socialism, etc.

Libertarianism is also often referred to as "classical liberalism" because prior to the late 1800s a "liberal" more closely resembled a modern day libertarian than a modern day liberal.  Modern day liberals more closely resemble socialists than anything else, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  

I think the big difference between the two is that libertarian philosophy is based on individual freedom and the non-coercion principle, whereas modern liberal philosophy (in the US) usually means social liberalism which advocates strong government intervention into economic and social issues.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: "stromboli"I for one have never seen a good definition of what Libertarian is. People like Rand Paul certainly do not echo my beliefs, and I frankly avoid discussing the issue because it is too murky for me.
"A Libertarian is a Republican that's too embarrassed to say so.'
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

GSOgymrat

Most of the libertarians I know focus on free-market capitalism and advocate little to no federal government. They are very much against taxes, welfare, universal healthcare, gun control, drug laws, public schools, quotas or restricting prostitution, abortion or immigration. My libertarian friends have a "survival of the fittest" attitude and tend to be very driven, financially successful and own their own businesses. Most of my libertarian friends also happen to be atheists.

Gawdzilla Sama

Dear Libertarians, stop calling 9-1-1. You're only going to get that part of the fire truck that you paid for. One half of a hub cap.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

GSOgymrat

Quote from: "Gawdzilla Sama"Dear Libertarians, stop calling 9-1-1. You're only going to get that part of the fire truck that you paid for. One half of a hub cap.

Oh, my libertarian friend Tom completely agrees with you. He says fire departments should be privatized and individuals should pay companies for emergency services. If you don't have a service contract or agree to pay, as your house is burning down, then too bad-- you should have been a responsible property owner and now you pay the price for your negligence. If the fire from your property damages a neighbor's property that neighbor can sue you.

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: "GSOgymrat"
Quote from: "Gawdzilla Sama"Dear Libertarians, stop calling 9-1-1. You're only going to get that part of the fire truck that you paid for. One half of a hub cap.

Oh, my libertarian friend Tom completely agrees with you. He says fire departments should be privatized and individuals should pay companies for emergency services. If you don't have a service contract or agree to pay, as your house is burning down, then too bad-- you should have been a responsible property owner and now you pay the price for your negligence. If the fire from your property damages a neighbor's property that neighbor can sue you.
Yeah, and one family got a bill for >$100,000 for private firefighting services, despite the fact that the house was a complete loss. This was in Montana IIRC.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Gawdzilla Sama

BTW, have you ever seen the firefighters in "Gangs of New York"?  :shock:
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Plu

Quote from: "GSOgymrat"
Quote from: "Gawdzilla Sama"Dear Libertarians, stop calling 9-1-1. You're only going to get that part of the fire truck that you paid for. One half of a hub cap.

Oh, my libertarian friend Tom completely agrees with you. He says fire departments should be privatized and individuals should pay companies for emergency services. If you don't have a service contract or agree to pay, as your house is burning down, then too bad-- you should have been a responsible property owner and now you pay the price for your negligence. If the fire from your property damages a neighbor's property that neighbor can sue you.

Your friend Tom's ideal world sounds like a great place to watch from the sidelines as it burns to cinders, but I'd hate to be an inhabitant of it.

stromboli

Quote from: "Jack89"You are obviously quite biased toward your own political agenda and seem to have a hard-on for anything resembling a conservative, in which you've included libertarians.  I think your sources, which seem dubious at best, appear cherry-picked to reflect your bias.

As a self-proclaimed libertarian, with a small "l", I'll tell you what it means to me.  The Stanford Encyclopedia says it pretty good for starters, "libertarianism, in the strict sense, is the moral view that agents initially fully own themselves and have certain moral powers to acquire property rights in external things."  The big part for me is self-ownership, and I think that's the big part for a lot of libertarians.  While I think government should small, only as big as absolutely necessary, and follow the principle of subsidiarity, I still think there is a necessary role for government in modern day society.  On social matters I lean liberal (in the classical sense), and don't have a desire to oppress anyone.  I watch CNN more than FOX and think Glen Beck is an opportunistic parasite.  I'm not a rich capitalist, don't hate anyone just because they're LGBT, I'm not a Christian, and have never turned in an illegal immigrant.  I even support a social safety net (Milton Friedman style) for practical reasons.  Oh, and I don't belong to the Libertarian party (hence the little "l").  I don't even know what their agenda is.

You might want to look at some other sources for your information.

And all the stuff you listed pretty much makes you not a Libertarian. This is what I'm talking about. Rand Paul is a Libertarian. He doesn't espouse a social safety net, government should be small, etc. You're saying "oh, I'm a Libertarian except for the following......." except he ran as a Republican and more often than not falls in with the Republican party line.

Social Security is big government. ACA is big government. Medicaid/Medicare big government. FDR implemented "big government" to end the depression by making safety nets all over the place. That is what these programs represent, and ask any pensioner who relies on Social Security or Medicare if they like it or not. Glass-Steagall can be touted as big government because it put the reins on Wall Street, and kept their idiocy in check for 40 years. Look what happened when Galss-Steagall was overturned; the biggest recession since the depression.

I'm a Libertarian. I believe that we should all be able to pack sidearms into Walmart and I should be able to build a tree house in a national forest and go fishing without a license just because. Oh, and drive on the wrong side of the road at twice the speed limit, just because.

You'll have to do better than that. You'll have to come up with a definition that fits exactly what Libertarian is so that we can define it. Libertarian is a catch all name. People who are both liberal and conservative call themselves Libertarian, Sorry, don't buy it.