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Verse 9:29

Started by VladK, February 03, 2014, 08:24:07 PM

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VladK

People are constantly told by apologists of Islam and their naive useful idiots that "Islam is a religion of peace" and that the "extremists", the terrorists, the Sharia law advocates, the Sharia regime leaders, basically any Muslim or Muslim group who doesn't act in accordance to western notions of human rights - these are all "hijacking the religion" and "midunderstanding" its peaceful tolerant teachings. Oh and it's also Murica's fault for their imperialism, without which they'd obviously embrace TRUE progressive Islam.

So let's discuss verse 9:29.

QuoteFight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Other translations say to make unbelievers "feel themselves subdued".

The Qur'an urges Muslims to make war upon non-Muslims and give them 3 choices: conversion, submission as dhimmis (2nd class citizens) or permanent conflict to the death.

We're constantly told that these verses are taken "out of context" by radical atheists and "Islamophobes", even though numerous scholars agree with the interpretation I just gave you and historically the Islamic caliphates have pursued this policy of aggressive expansion as commanded by scripture. Conquered lands became part of a caliphate, and non-Muslims subjected the dhimma.

So for example Ibn Kathir's commentary ( http://www.qtafsir.com ) says:

Quote(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.) Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah's Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad's advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah's statement,

A Shafi'i Sunni manual "Reliance of the Traveler" ( http://www.shafiifiqh.com/maktabah/reli ... veller.pdf ) defines jihad as:

Quoteo9.0 JIHAD
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada
signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is
spiritual warfare against the lower self (nafs), which is why the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him
peace) said as he was returning from jihad.
QuoteTHE OBJECTIVES OF JIHAD
o9.8 The caliph (o25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first
invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social
order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o11.4)-which is the significance of their
paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues)
until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah
Most High,
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His
messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given
the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled" (Koran 9.29),

Shafi'i is just one of the 4 main schools of Sunni Islam (80-85% of the population) although the other 3, Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi aren't significantly different when it comes to jihad and its goal.

In light of this, the lies of Islamic apologists and their useful idiots (mostly gullible liberals) need to be called out. You cannot reform something you won't admit is broken.

Islam is not a religion of peace and the reason the Islamic world hasn't conquered the west has more to do with military weakness and the loss of the last caliphate in 1924, rather it being peaceful or tolerant. Likewise, the existence of moderate Muslims has more to do with the fact that people tend to ignore some of their religious obligations, and less with the supposed peaceful teachings.

aitm

I believe that Islam like any religion when it encounters a long history of education will soften its edges just like xians did. The bigger issue imo, is, can we keep education clipping along in Muslims countries? If we can, a religion will soften to education as people tend to become more liberal when they are "non-biasedly" exposed to other peoples cultures. If education is fought to its own existence then the religion will amble along until it meets a greater resistence or it is able to succeed. As I doubt Islam will conquer in an all out manner, (mainly cause there is no way they are getting past the Chinese) it is simply a matter of generational progress. People tend to like other people who are nice people. And nice people like nice people so when a religion demands you kill nice people, they kinda notice that the smarter they get.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

MitchellDaBomb

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

First Muslim means to submit to god. Just because someone is a Muslim doesn't mean they solely represent faith..all religions do...all people do who understand unity. Everyone is a part of it.
Fight in this context means repress.
Jizyah is a payment given to acknowledge that money is only material and invaluable. We fight the unbelievers because its the only way to maintain and restore the balance of good and bad knowledge(god). Like Ying and Yang. Those who don't offer anything to God bring down the human race, because they don't have purpose.
Hi I make music and stuff. You may be surprised.
https://soundcloud.com/sinclair-12

stromboli

Islam has a long history of invading countries to "promote" their religion, just as Christianity has a long history of invasion and genocide. Draw your conclusions from what has occurred historically and not how you interpret scriptures. Islam in practice is not peaceful, regardless of any interpretation you might make to the contrary. It has been pointed out here many times that Islamic terrorists can justify their practices in their scriptures just as much as Christians can in theirs.

aitm

Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb""Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

First Muslim means to submit to god. Just because someone is a Muslim doesn't mean they solely represent faith..all religions do...all people do who understand unity. Everyone is a part of it.
Fight in this context means repress.
Jizyah is a payment given to acknowledge that money is only material and invaluable. We fight the unbelievers because its the only way to maintain and restore the balance of good and bad knowledge(god). Like Ying and Yang. Those who don't offer anything to God bring down the human race, because they don't have purpose.

"It really don't mean what is says it means....really, those hundred of thousands of people who studied this shit long before I was born are just plain wrong....here, let me tell you what it really means....and before I do that, put yer gun down and let your daughter sit on my lap, bring yer son over here so I can lay my hand upon his head......TRUST ME, I ain't a lair..trust me with the lives of your family, hell you just met me but I know the quran much better than anybody else cause I know what it REALLY says.....c'mon, what could possibly go wrong?"
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Insult to Rocks

Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb""Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

First Muslim means to submit to god. Just because someone is a Muslim doesn't mean they solely represent faith..all religions do...all people do who understand unity. Everyone is a part of it.
Fight in this context means repress.
Jizyah is a payment given to acknowledge that money is only material and invaluable. We fight the unbelievers because its the only way to maintain and restore the balance of good and bad knowledge(god). Like Ying and Yang. Those who don't offer anything to God bring down the human race, because they don't have purpose.
Why does an omipotent, omni-present god even need offerings? Is he that vain and self absorbed that he needs weaker beings to worship him?
Also, saying that people who don't believe in god have no purpose whilst on an atheist forum may not be the best move. Honestly, I think that fits better with the religious. Those who offer everything to God bring down the human race, as they have no purpose other than to please their imaginary friend.
"We must respect the other fellow\'s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken

MitchellDaBomb

Quote from: "Insult to Rocks"
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb""Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

First Muslim means to submit to god. Just because someone is a Muslim doesn't mean they solely represent faith..all religions do...all people do who understand unity. Everyone is a part of it.
Fight in this context means repress.
Jizyah is a payment given to acknowledge that money is only material and invaluable. We fight the unbelievers because its the only way to maintain and restore the balance of good and bad knowledge(god). Like Ying and Yang. Those who don't offer anything to God bring down the human race, because they don't have purpose.
Why does an omipotent, omni-present god even need offerings? Is he that vain and self absorbed that he needs weaker beings to worship him?
Also, saying that people who don't believe in god have no purpose whilst on an atheist forum may not be the best move. Honestly, I think that fits better with the religious. Those who offer everything to God bring down the human race, as they have no purpose other than to please their imaginary friend.

Well he did create you in three stages of darkness in the womb...I think that is a little deserving of payment in this life..and if Knowledge is God and the purpose of humanity is to further knowledge...then am i wrong?
Hi I make music and stuff. You may be surprised.
https://soundcloud.com/sinclair-12

Insult to Rocks

Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"
Quote from: "Insult to Rocks"
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb""Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

First Muslim means to submit to god. Just because someone is a Muslim doesn't mean they solely represent faith..all religions do...all people do who understand unity. Everyone is a part of it.
Fight in this context means repress.
Jizyah is a payment given to acknowledge that money is only material and invaluable. We fight the unbelievers because its the only way to maintain and restore the balance of good and bad knowledge(god). Like Ying and Yang. Those who don't offer anything to God bring down the human race, because they don't have purpose.
Why does an omipotent, omni-present god even need offerings? Is he that vain and self absorbed that he needs weaker beings to worship him?
Also, saying that people who don't believe in god have no purpose whilst on an atheist forum may not be the best move. Honestly, I think that fits better with the religious. Those who offer everything to God bring down the human race, as they have no purpose other than to please their imaginary friend.

Well he did create you in three stages of darkness in the womb...I think that is a little deserving of payment in this life..and if Knowledge is God and the purpose of humanity is to further knowledge...then am i wrong?
God did noy create me, certainly not in three stages of darkness in the womb, whatever the hell that means. I was created through a process which I sure hope you understand, but if not there are plenty of free "educational" videos floating around the net you could watch. God is not knowledge, beacuse if an omnipresent being is knowledge, than why, may I ask, does the being which is simultaniously everywhere have to explain it's own presence? Finally, and this is something that can be applied secularly as well, creation is not praiseworthy, and no one owes anyone anything because they concieved them. I did not ask to be created, I had no choice in the matter, and I did not even have a consciousness for much of that . I owe no god anything, nor do I owe my actual creators anything.
"We must respect the other fellow\'s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken

Damarcus

Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"..and if Knowledge is God and the purpose of humanity is to further knowledge...then am i wrong?
But if God is omnipotent and omnipresent, how could we possibly further him? (It?)

also, where does it say in the Quran that "Knowledge is God" as you've implied here? (I don't doubt you, I just don't know enough of the Quran to verify this)
Quote from: \"Tony Harrison\""This is an outrage!"

Quote from: \"Plu\"When you can\'t wield logic, everything sounds like an insult.

MitchellDaBomb

Quote from: "Damarcus"
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"..and if Knowledge is God and the purpose of humanity is to further knowledge...then am i wrong?
But if God is omnipotent and omnipresent, how could we possibly further him? (It?)

also, where does it say in the Quran that "Knowledge is God" as you've implied here? (I don't doubt you, I just don't know enough of the Quran to verify this)

I have read the Quran numerous times...I read from the essences themselves now, the Book of Certitude, Hidden Words, and Most Holy Book.
It doesn't say anything in the Quran about God being knowledge...but if God is Everything in existence....then he is all knowledge right?
Hi I make music and stuff. You may be surprised.
https://soundcloud.com/sinclair-12

Damarcus

if he's everything in existence, he is also ignorance.

If he is everything in existence than surely all paths lead to God, whether we want them to or not.
Quote from: \"Tony Harrison\""This is an outrage!"

Quote from: \"Plu\"When you can\'t wield logic, everything sounds like an insult.

Insult to Rocks

Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"
Quote from: "Damarcus"
Quote from: "MitchellDaBomb"..and if Knowledge is God and the purpose of humanity is to further knowledge...then am i wrong?
But if God is omnipotent and omnipresent, how could we possibly further him? (It?)

also, where does it say in the Quran that "Knowledge is God" as you've implied here? (I don't doubt you, I just don't know enough of the Quran to verify this)

I have read the Quran numerous times...I read from the essences themselves now, the Book of Certitude, Hidden Words, and Most Holy Book.
It doesn't say anything in the Quran about God being knowledge...but if God is Everything in existence....then he is all knowledge right?
If he is everything, than it also follows than he is all the evil, reprehensible things in the universe as well.
"We must respect the other fellow\'s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken

MitchellDaBomb

Quote from: "Insult to Rocks"If he is everything, than it also follows than he is all the evil, reprehensible things in the universe as well.

And everything that is good and lovable! He makes all hearts flutter like the flappings of wings, but also makes hearts tremble in fear.
Hi I make music and stuff. You may be surprised.
https://soundcloud.com/sinclair-12

The Skeletal Atheist

So if God is everything, then I'm right when I think of him as HIV infested, shit covered herpes sore! Awesome!
Some people need to be beaten with a smart stick.

Kein Mehrheit Fur Die Mitleid!

Kein Mitlied F�r Die Mehrheit!

Aletheia

The quran is just an outdated war machine. An omnipotent and omniscient being has no use for praise (that would imply he had an inferior ego) and would have no lust for war (he'd know all that has happen, is happening, and will happen). In short, any deity as described by any of the Abrahamic religions would be a being devoid of emotions living in a universe that provides no new information to him and requires no use of him. He would be a silent, bored god, with no use for human affairs in the slightest.

As for owing a creator, that simply isn't true. Children do not owe their lives to their mothers. In the case of abusive mothers, children are often taken from these mothers in hopes of providing them with more secure environments (especially in first world countries).

"Allah" of the Quran is nothing more than the representation of all the most prized masculine traits during the time of Muhummad deified for use as a tool to drive men to war and conquest. The only peace Islam has ever promised is that of death. Even for its followers, all the promises of Islam only occur after they too are dead.

My only hope in regards to Islam is that it may one day find the peace of death, either by being lost to human memory, or as with the case of Christianity, begins to lose its core identity and becomes a fluffy, "feel good," emasculated version that is no longer the war-hungry doctrine it once was.
Quote from: Jakenessif you believe in the supernatural, you do not understand modern science. Period.