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Nietzsche on Socialism

Started by zarus tathra, January 26, 2014, 10:40:12 PM

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zarus tathra

QuoteSocialism is the visionary younger brother of an almost decrepit despotism, whose heir it wants to be. Thus its efforts are reactionary in the deepest sense. For it desires a wealth of executive power, as only despotism had it; indeed, it outdoes everything in the past by striving for the downright destruction of the individual, which it sees as an unjustified luxury of nature, and which it intends to improve into an expedient organ of the community. Socialism crops up in the vicinity of all excessive displays of power because of its relation to it, like the typical old socialist Plato, at the court of the Sicilian tyrant;11 it desires (and in certain circumstances, furthers) the Caesarean power state of this century, because, as we said, it would like to be its heir. But even this inheritance would not suffice for its purposes; it needs the most submissive subjugation of all citizens to the absolute state, the like of which has never existed. And since it cannot even count any longer on the old religious piety towards the state, having rather always to work automatically to eliminate piety (because it works on the elimination of all existing states), it can only hope to exist here and there for short periods of time by means of the most extreme terrorism.

link

This guy was a prophet. It seems that those who seek to rule but can not do so by means of respect will always attempt to rule through fear.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Shiranu

Nietzsche was neither a mathematician nor a physicist. Additionally, he was a text-book example of a philosopher; his entire career was dedicated to the "non-scientific" (or more properly, the non-absolute [i.e. anything not related to mathematics]). He wrote several books that all went past 25 pages and often questioned if there was such thing as truth (which would mean mathematical truths as well would be questioned, something you should abhor).

You also feel the need to quote a great mind; why? In your previous posts you alluded to (and if IIRC, bluntly stated) that doing so is showing a lack of creativity of your own. If it was someone else who stated this, then my mistake, nevertheless the first point still stands.

Finally you are going for an appeal to authority, quoting from a "Holy Book" to try to justify and explain your own thoughts, something you have stated you are against.

If you are going to post multiple threads about how silly you think these things are, please try harder not to turn around a few days later and do the exact things you condemned.

What is your endgame? Is this for the laughs or do you actually think your pseudo-intellectualism is making us believe that you are some great mind who thinks independent of all outside influences and is so far above us plebeians that when he declares the political ideologies he disagrees with are wrong we will automatically assume you are correct and adopt your beliefs?

To be blunt, you strike me the same as all the others who hold dogmatically to their political ideals... so blind to the fact that the flaws of the "other side" you condemn are nothing more than the very same flaws everyone else sees in you. You are becoming more and more boring by the day :(.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

zarus tathra

You'd have a point if what he was saying wasn't totally obvious to any outside observer of socialist societies. Nobody but a revolutionary could fail to perceive the desperate, delusional character of the bulk of lower middle class political activism wherever it rears its head. Whether it takes the form of fascism or Bolshevism, it does not matter. Its goal is always to substitute politics for science.

The "appeal to authority" in this case is nothing more than a regrettable necessity of dealing with hungry fanatics, which is what the bulk of "activists" are. If I really wanted to, I could probably turn to Bertrand Russell or Carroll Quigley for a quote that says something similar but more bloodless.

My god... telling the truth is AWESOME
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Shiranu

QuoteThis guy was a prophet.

That doesn't strike me as an unnecessary use but rather a statement of admiration, regardless of if you choose to admit it or not (I am indifferent if you do, I am just trying to milk the last bit of fun out of you). Of course you cannot admit it even if you wanted to because to do so would say that you can admit that a philosopher, someone you adamantly wrote (in multiple posts) was someone you could not, under any circumstances, accept... said something you could accept.

Now, the fact that you adamantly have stated time and time again that you cannot accept these people's opinions makes the fact you would quote a philosopher, and not just quote a philosopher but give him praise, a bit curious. If you wanted to prove a point you would have said so, judging by your posting habits. You, right or wrong, have been very blunt in your statements intended to discredit people and I don't see why that would have changed. To risk being redundant, again you went on a spree of saying you cannot accept a thing the say so you have no logical reason to use that phrase, that he was a prophet.

Of course you also ignore the fact that N. was strongly against the concept of democracy, believing it was a disgusting side effect of Christianity and a plague that had stricken Plato. Yet he was also staunchly against anarchism. He believed in the ideal of godmen, Übermensch. Just like Communism and Anarchism, this a philosophy that simply doesn't work no matter how nice it may sound on paper.

Digressing though. The point is you are a hypocrite who will judge a man for one thing and then two seconds later commit the same act you so vehemently believe to be vile and pleb. You are the same as any other person who thinks they have politics all figured out... so confident in your belief that you cant ever realize you are just one of the faces in the mirror you are yelling at. We have thousands of you in droves and we will have thousands of you in droves. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will realize your "truth" is nothing more than the same shit Communists, Anarchists, Christians, Muslims peddle... the belief that you are right, everyone else is wrong and fuck the rest because I am more right than them.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

zarus tathra

QuoteThat doesn't strike me as an unnecessary use but rather a statement of admiration, regardless of if you choose to admit it or not (I am indifferent if you do, I am just trying to milk the last bit of fun out of you). Of course you cannot admit it even if you wanted to because to do so would say that you can admit that a philosopher, someone you adamantly wrote (in multiple posts) was someone you could not, under any circumstances, accept... said something you could accept.

This is the Internet, hyperbole is more noticeable when it is NOT present. :D

QuoteOf course you also ignore the fact that N. was strongly against the concept of democracy, believing it was a disgusting side effect of Christianity and a plague that had stricken Plato. Yet he was also staunchly against anarchism. He believed in the ideal of godmen, Übermensch. Just like Communism and Anarchism, this a philosophy that simply doesn't work no matter how nice it may sound on paper.

Democracy is the rule of the majority over the minority, it does not preclude the existence of things like race laws and the "rational self-interest" of the greedy and fearful.

Anarchism generally stops being about individualism and degenerates into democracy in its worst possible incarnation, assuming it wasn't already the worst possible form of democracy.

Look at the history of scientific development and you'll find that the Ubermensch model actually works pretty well. There's always incremental development, obviously, but Newtonian mechanics and the theory of relativity weren't designed by committee.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Sal1981

Nietzsche, as quoted in OP, imprecisely lays a critique against Socialism lies on the idea of it somehow destroying individuality. I'm unsure as to what Socialism looked like around the time Nietzsche wrote that, but Socialism is merely a political and economic philosophy about cooperative enterprise and organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Really, Nietzsche comes off as spouting rhetoric in that quote with ill-defined words to make a critique against Socialism.

zarus tathra

I'll do my best to Anglicize his writing.

Socialism is basically an attempt by the bureaucratic/advisor classes to usurp the power and wealth of the noble/ownership classes. Its philosophy centers around valuing all things in terms of how "useful" it is, including human life itself. As a result, individuality itself becomes nothing more than a useless luxury, a "subversive," "feudal" remnant.

Aristocracies, in Nietzsche's mind, rule primarily by cultural means. Legacy, the belief in divine right, etc. Socialism eradicates all these cultural bases for the state while fighting to retain the privileges of the state and so must rule, or at least attempt to, by means of violent despotism and the fanatical promotion of impersonal values like "justice." This violence is self-destructive; thus, socialist states can not rule for very long.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Sal1981

Then I think Nietzsche was wrong.

It's a non sequitur that the enterprise of cooperation and organization should somehow lead to de-valuing individualism. Utility philosophies has nothing to do with Socialism, that's an error people assume about it, because Utility in Socialism is about economic value, not philosophical nor political organization. It's the opposite. Even in Communism it is laid out, with pretty words, how individuals will live free in a classless society able to pursue individual interest without social coercion and other pretty words for it.

zarus tathra

Sure, "classless" Communism is a fine ideal, but the intermediate stage is always state bureaucracy, which is always specified in MUCH more detail.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Sal1981

Quote from: "zarus tathra"Sure, "classless" Communism is a fine ideal, but the intermediate stage is always state bureaucracy, which is always specified in MUCH more detail.
It rains between theory and practice.

frosty

If this person wants to swap a religious figure to idolize for a philosophical figure to idolize, let them. This person has been posting in the political section for quite a while now and they obviously feel content to plaster their opinions all over this section. They also seem to be be of the opinion that they are an intellectual exception, different than the average "plebeian", and their narcissism shines through every once in a while. Them thinking they are an exception naturally tends to cause clashes with other users - perhaps they see the users on this forum, too, as "plebeians". Perhaps.

It's really a shame when Atheists take "god" out of the equation and worship themselves, or other humans for that matter. I've seen lots of Atheists be guilty of such a thing; they can disagree if they want, it's no skin off my ass.

Plu

I don't know what Nietschze was describing, but it appears to be nothing like the socialism I know, and I'm fairly sure the Netherlands are considered quite socialist. It's also a country with some of the most individualistic folk I've seen and heard.

zarus tathra

It's capitalist socialism with high taxes but a fairly free market.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Plu

And it seems to be working just fine.

Of course, all theoretical systems of economy/politics fail if applied strictly from the books. You always need to mix and match to get something that works.

Solitary

It sounds to me Nietzsche was a prophet after the likes of the Bush and his cohorts with their use of fear.  :roll:   :popcorn:  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.