Zionism is Wrong

[stromboli]

Not going to recap vladk's post, but he is essentially correct. Palestine is an invention of the people who were against Israel, including Arab sheikhs and Imams. Palestine was a name given to a territory under the British, but was never a country. Israel as a country existed far back in history, dating at least 2,500 years or more. Palestine, or the notion of a separate country, was created around 1977 by people like Yassir Arafat to oppose Israel. The Palestinians were refugees just like the Israelis. the difference is that they were not allowed into surrounding countries like Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, even though they had the same religion and spoke the same language. They were allowed to live in Palestine by the Israelis.

Back when I was a Christian, one of the people I worked with was Jewish. I learned a few things. One of them is that when we think of terrorist acts, we think 9/11 and the Boston Marathon. In Israel, terrorism is a daily reality. Hundreds if not thousands of terrorist act have been committed there, from bus bombings to desecration of holy sites to personal attacks. We see what the media shows. I made a point awhile ago that the video cameras held by Palestinians showing Israeli soldiers shooting at kids somehow doesn't show the act that perpetrated the reaction. There are two sides to the story, and too often the Israeli side isn't shown.

[Insult to Rocks]

Look, I'm not going to echo the "Middle East never changes" sentiment, because I very much disagree, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not so simple as to simply pick which side is "good". Frankly, I couldn't care less who claims ownership of that damn land, but I care when the two groups can't live peacefully together and decide to start killing each other. The problem is neither side is willing to compromise. Israel wants all the land, because they feel like it was promised to them, and the Palestinians want the land back, more do to anti-Semitism and blind hatred fueled by Islam. The problem here is religion in general, not any specific one. The solution is obvious: sharing the land. But neither group is willing to do that.

[VladK]

I suspect that if they adopted a one-state solution that was completely secular with equal rights for all and a democracy, the jihadists would then still complain about it not being Islamic and would continue "resistance to liberate Palestine from the river to the sea".

[josephpalazzo]

I didn't mean shit in terms of quality of land. I meant that the Palestinians were already inhabitants of about 94% of the land that is currently Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank, yet the UN basically divided that land up and said both of you can have it 50-50.

I don't know where you got those numbers. What I got is that the population in Palestine in 1947, was composed of 630,000 Jews and 1.1million Muslims, more or less a 1 to 2 ratio, far from your claim of 94%. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine

[frosty]

Look, I'm not going to echo the "Middle East never changes" sentiment, because I very much disagree, but the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not so simple as to simply pick which side is "good". Frankly, I couldn't care less who claims ownership of that damn land, but I care when the two groups can't live peacefully together and decide to start killing each other. The problem is neither side is willing to compromise. Israel wants all the land, because they feel like it was promised to them, and the Palestinians want the land back, more do to anti-Semitism and blind hatred fueled by Islam. The problem here is religion in general, not any specific one. The solution is obvious: sharing the land. But neither group is willing to do that.

What basis do you have to reject the idea that the Middle East never changes? What concrete proof do you have that such an idea is incorrect?

Israel has honestly been a gift on a silver platter to tyrants like Assad as well as armed religious groups. They can continue to claim they "resist the Zionists", and reap the benefits of partaking in "jihad" and "resistance", meanwhile they do nothing to actually stop Israel; Israel launches occasional raids that kill people, and the cycle repeats over for years and years.

[Thumpalumpacus]

There's enough blame to go around.Neither the Israelis nor the Arabs have clean hands in the matter, but as Insult to Rocks so aptly points out, the refusal to cmpromise is what damns the region to unrest.

I sometimes think it's a shame that Islam never experienced its version of Christianity's 30 Years' War, where differing sects went at it hammer-and-tongs to the tune of a few million dead and scorched earth in their heartland.  That lesson was well-absorbed by European powers, which largely ridded their politics of religious influence.

I also think it's a shame that Israelis cannot stop building houses on Palestinian land, despite knowing that the very act is a provocation.

Hopefully, the Obama Administration's apparent cooling of our relations with Israel holds over to the next Administration.  They should not take our support for granted.  Our support should be conditional upon them working actively to promote better relations throughout the region.

[VladK]

I sometimes think it's a shame that Islam never experienced its version of Christianity's 30 Years' War, where differing sects went at it hammer-and-tongs to the tune of a few million dead and scorched earth in their heartland.  That lesson was well-absorbed by European powers, which largely ridded their politics of religious influence.

The Islamic world is hardly without conflict and division, just think of Sunnis vs. Shi'ites. Or think of the factions that now fight for control of Egypt. They have enough to learn from if they want to. Plenty of Muslim blood has been spilled by other Muslims who didn't agree on religious or political matters. Just recently I saw a Live Leak video of Syrian rebels killing other Muslims for not being Muslim enough. Also remember how Al'Qaida took over a part of Mali?

Even in the Palestinian territories, they don't exactly settle things peacefully by elections. Hamas and Fatah often fight physically.