A hard currency standard is the key to world peace

[zarus tathra]

If a country can debase its coinage without anyone seeming to care, then that's not a "hard currency standard." And that's why I believe in privately run gold/silver banking, because no private bank can fuck up the way a government bank can and survive for very long.

[the_antithesis]

A hard currency standard is a very good idea. I propose a blowjob-based currency where the bearer is entitled to one blowjob. Tell me that isn't a currency that everyone can value.

[zarus tathra]

There's actually a book called Schismatrix where one of the major powers is a "geisha bank" where the currency used is hours of service.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If a country can debase its coinage without anyone seeming to care, then that's not a "hard currency standard."

You haven't demonstrated that that has happened in any case; you've alleged it in the case of Rome, and said it has "probably" happened elsewhere -- with no evidence.

 

And that's why I believe in privately run gold/silver banking, because no private bank can fuck up the way a government bank can and survive for very long.

Governments won't permit that, because a reliable money supply is vital to economic health.

[zarus tathra]

Did you not see all those links in my op? And here's a link about the debasement of the silver coins during the Imperial era. I thought I'd posted a link about it, sorry.

In every single example I post, there's an abandonment of any sort of hard metal standard, either through seizures or through debasement or the replacement of hard silver with paper.

A government-run currency is only "reliable" because people are willing to be fleeced by their government.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Did you not see all those links in my op? And here's a link about the debasement of the silver coins during the Imperial era. I thought I'd posted a link about it, sorry.

In every single example I post, there's an abandonment of any sort of hard metal standard, either through seizures or through debasement or the replacement of hard silver with paper.

Oddly enough, none of those address the First World War, a war which started while every major bank in the world was on a fixed gold standard, and which, despite your claim, started anyway.

Your hypothesis must explain contradictory data if it is to be useful.

[zarus tathra]

Here you go. Massive suspensions of metal/paper convertibility in pretty much every country in the world, even Germany, which was the center of the Thaler, a high-silver coin that was the European standard all throughout its history.

[josephpalazzo]

Did I read this correctly, a hard one is key to world peace?!?  :P

[zarus tathra]

Did I read this correctly, a hard one is key to world peace?!?  :P

maaaayyyybe

But I think an energy standard is best, and that book actually uses stored electricity as the universal currency outside of the one colony that has the Geisha Bank. Gold and silver are nice alternatives to the BS that is paper money, but I think joule production and the efficiency of usage are MUCH more relevant metrics of economic power with much less of a delay.

[Hakurei Reimu]

I think you're getting away from a point that you have yet to explain, zarus: how does a hard currency standard prevent wars? You've put forward examples, but examples are not explanations.

Nor do you explain how the joule standard is a hard currency, given that in any transport system for energy, there is always loss.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Here you go. Massive suspensions of metal/paper convertibility in pretty much every country in the world, even Germany, which was the center of the Thaler, a high-silver coin that was the European standard all throughout its history.

Your wiki article contradicts you:

By the end of 1913, the classical gold standard was at its peak but World War I caused many countries to suspend or abandon it.

In other words, fiat currency wasn't the cause of that war, but a result.

Did you read that first, or did you simply think that linking to a wiki would look good?

[zarus tathra]

A joule standard is "hard currency" because the commodity that underpins it is necessary in a physical sense and not merely a social sense. Because there can't be any economic activity without the use and movement of energy, while with paper bills anything can happen. As long as you run the printing press, you can make anything you want happen.

And a paper/gold standard isn't really a hard currency, because governments can and do print paper bills for much more gold than it can be redeemed for. By the time they formally abandon the gold standard, it's always after years of running the printing press. The Feds did that with Bretton Woods, the European powers did that with their gold standards, it's only in times of war that this debasement becomes so obvious that they have to actually come out and admit to their fraud.

Warlike governments generally need soft currencies because governments are always broke/in debt and going to war is super-expensive, so wars almost always push them over the edge.

In other words, fiat currency wasn't the cause of that war, but a result.

Did you read that first, or did you simply think that linking to a wiki would look good?

Here you go. Massive suspensions of metal/paper convertibility in pretty much every country in the world, even Germany, which was the center of the Thaler, a high-silver coin that was the European standard all throughout its history.

Your wiki article contradicts you:

By the end of 1913, the classical gold standard was at its peak but World War I caused many countries to suspend or abandon it.

In other words, fiat currency wasn't the cause of that war, but a result.

Did you read that first, or did you simply think that linking to a wiki would look good?

Here you go. Massive suspensions of metal/paper convertibility in pretty much every country in the world, even Germany, which was the center of the Thaler, a high-silver coin that was the European standard all throughout its history.

Your wiki article contradicts you:

By the end of 1913, the classical gold standard was at its peak but World War I caused many countries to suspend or abandon it.

In other words, fiat currency wasn't the cause of that war, but a result.

Did you read that first, or did you simply think that linking to a wiki would look good?

Ummm I didn't say that it was a cause of war, I've always said that currency debasement was one of the necessary components. You're getting into Christian-Apologetics levels of wrangling here. I think I'll just ignore you from now on.

[Hakurei Reimu]

A joule standard is "hard currency" because the commodity that underpins it is necessary in a physical sense and not merely a social sense. Because there can't be any economic activity without the use and movement of energy, while with paper bills anything can happen. As long as you run the printing press, you can make anything you want happen.

Okay then, suppose I bring my 1 joule bill to the mint to have it redeemed for electrical energy. How much of that 1 joule do I actually get, and how much does the mint have to generate in order to get me that?

And a paper/gold standard isn't really a hard currency, because governments can and do print paper bills for much more gold than it can be redeemed for. By the time they formally abandon the gold standard, it's always after years of running the printing press. The Feds did that with Bretton Woods, the European powers did that with their gold standards, it's only in times of war that this debasement becomes so obvious that they have to actually come out and admit to their fraud.

You can do that with the "joule standard," too. You can print more joule money than the government will ever be able to redeem. Remember that the resources used to make the currency has to be less value than the currency produced. With high denomination bills, the difference between the value of the resources used and the value of the currency can be extreme. A dollar bill costs much less than a dollar for the US Treasury to print; a $100,000 bill hardly costs more to print than a one dollar bill.

Warlike governments generally need soft currencies because governments are always broke/in debt and going to war is super-expensive, so wars almost always push them over the edge.

Always broke/in debt? Really? They never run surpluses or hit a rich vein of silver that they could easily turn into kizzash? You're being awfully vague here.

[zarus tathra]

Okay then, suppose I bring my 1 joule bill to the mint to have it redeemed for electrical energy. How much of that 1 joule do I actually get, and how much does the mint have to generate in order to get me that?

The details would obviously need to be worked out, but they would probably charge on the basis of how much distance/resistance/energy from the wall-plug/energy at the point of generation.

You can do that with the "joule standard," too. You can print more joule money than the government will ever be able to redeem. Remember that the resources used to make the currency has to be less value than the currency produced. With high denomination bills, the difference between the value of the resources used and the value of the currency can be extreme. A dollar bill costs much less than a dollar for the US Treasury to print; a $100,000 bill hardly costs more to print than a one dollar bill.

And they'd know right away if the government/power company were doing that. The power would go out and people would get pissed. With a gold standard, the bills are almost never redeemed, and even then only with great trouble. With a joule standard, this redemption would be continuous and exacting. If they "debased" the currency and started giving people less than their money's worth, people would know that, too. That's why energy would be the hardest currency of all, because it would be so difficult to inflate.

Incidentally, this would probably lead to an incredible degree of predictability in all the world's financial markets. Everybody would know EXACTLY how much everything costs.

Always broke/in debt? Really? They never run surpluses or hit a rich vein of silver that they could easily turn into kizzash? You're being awfully vague here.

The Thaler came about because of the discovery of silver mines, that is true, but this is not the norm.

I feel that this would be by far the most direct form of democracy ever devised.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Okay then, suppose I bring my 1 joule bill to the mint to have it redeemed for electrical energy. How much of that 1 joule do I actually get, and how much does the mint have to generate in order to get me that?

The details would obviously need to be worked out, but they would probably charge on the basis of how much distance/resistance/energy from the wall-plug/energy at the point of generation.

The upshot being that the amount of energy going into the system would not equal and exceed the amount of energy coming out of the system. There's going to be loss. Thus, the redeemer is going to have to pay more than one joule dollar's worth for every joule dollar that is redeemed. Furthermore, if you want to re-exchange your 1 joule for a joule dollar again, the other party isn't going to accept anything less than 1 joule at his end in exchange for it and probably more to cover the redemption losses. You would have to input more than one 1 joule to receive a (supposed) 1 joule dollar's amount. And electricity doesn't just sit around like a good material, either; you have to charge batteries with it, or spin up gyroscopes, or it just disappears, and those energy storage systems come with their own conversion losses. And even if you have the energy in these storage devices, there will be losses from them just sitting around. As time progresses, the amount of worth in a joule dollar goes down; it has inflation built-in.

Tell me again how this is supposed to be a hard currency?

You can do that with the "joule standard," too. You can print more joule money than the government will ever be able to redeem. Remember that the resources used to make the currency has to be less value than the currency produced. With high denomination bills, the difference between the value of the resources used and the value of the currency can be extreme. A dollar bill costs much less than a dollar for the US Treasury to print; a $100,000 bill hardly costs more to print than a one dollar bill.

And they'd know right away if the government/power company were doing that. The power would go out and people would get pissed. With a gold standard, the bills are almost never redeemed, and even then only with great trouble. With a joule standard, this redemption would be continuous and exacting. If they "debased" the currency and started giving people less than their money's worth, people would know that, too. That's why energy would be the hardest currency of all, because it would be so difficult to inflate.

Nonsense. The joules used to base the medium of exchange would not be related to the joules used for everyday domestic use. "Basing" means that the government guarantees that if you give the currency back to be redeemed, you get the correct amount of the base of the currency. The currency, remember, is used in lieu of the base of the currency. Electricity is pretty inconvenient for casual exchange into currency — you have to funnel it to the Treasury, where it is metered and stored (at a loss). The joule in its currency form is much much more stable and suitable as a medium of exchange than in its electrical form, so it will tend to be kept in that form for as long as possible. That means the volume of joule dollars that the Treasury will have to redeem at any one time will be small compared to the total number in circulation. A bluff is easy to achieve in this case.

Incidentally, this would probably lead to an incredible degree of predictability in all the world's financial markets. Everybody would know EXACTLY how much everything costs.

Again, nonsense. The various electrical generation technologies have cost of running that differ by both resource availability and remoteness of the customers. The costs of goods will be wildly different from region to region, depending on the quality of the electrical generation systems and grid — ie, depending on how much overhead there is in converting local joules to joule dollars.

Always broke/in debt? Really? They never run surpluses or hit a rich vein of silver that they could easily turn into kizzash? You're being awfully vague here.

The Thaler came about because of the discovery of silver mines, that is true, but this is not the norm.

Which made it possible to buy all the cannon that was being made at the time.

I feel that this would be by far the most direct form of democracy ever devised.

You "feel"? You're still being quite vague here. What is the mechanism that prevents war here? What happens with a hard currency to stop the country's war machine dead in its tracks?

It seems that the only reason that it would would be the lack of money, when money is really not related to the currency that your hard currency standard would create. So how does it all work?