A cure for homosexuality

[Plu]

Why are they not similar? There is more stigma attached to being an atheist then there is to be homosexual. If you would fix homosexuality if given the choice in order to prevent stigma, why not prevent atheism as well? It'll change your kid, they'll never know, and they'll catch less flak from society.

[aitm]

Why are they not similar? There is more stigma attached to being an atheist then there is to be homosexual. If you would fix homosexuality if given the choice in order to prevent stigma, why not prevent atheism as well? It'll change your kid, they'll never know, and they'll catch less flak from society.

Firstly I disagree with your premise that atheist have more stigma than homosexuals. Secondly, I don't see your scenario as possible as you would have to be able to interfere with future nuture, which can direct and change what you are proposing, so I don't think a guarantee would be possible. You are suggesting by implication that homosexuality can be taught and learned? Interesting.

[Plu]

Firstly I disagree with your premise that atheist have more stigma than homosexuals.

I'm just going on what I've heard from polls and the like. It might be wrong, though. But many polls seem to indicate that atheists are among the most hated groups of people in the US.

Secondly, I don't see your scenario as possible as you would have to be able to interfere with future nuture, which can direct and change what you are proposing, so I don't think a guarantee would be possible.

Regardless of how possible it is, both questions are hypotheticals. Also, all you need to do in order to make sure kids will grow up firm believers in god is to cut down on their rationality, which isn't all that hard since most people don't have much of it anyway.

You are suggesting by implication that homosexuality can be taught and learned? Interesting.

No I'm not. If anything, I'm saying rationality possesses a large element of nature just like homosexuality does. Even then; it's just a hypothetical question in the end. I just want to know why you think the option to make someone not gay is one worth taking to prevent stigma, but the option to make someone not atheist is not worth taking to prevent the same kind of stigma.

[aitm]

I just want to know why you think the option to make someone not gay is one worth taking to prevent stigma, but the option to make someone not atheist is not worth taking to prevent the same kind of stigma.

To me, one may be possible, the other is not. I don't think you can make someone atheist in-utero. And I don't see atheist anywhere near the same "stigma" that homosexuality is in todays world. I cannot see your argument at all similar. To me your argument is the same as saying make someone like philosophy, or pig latin vs being homosexual, I see no correlation to the OP. But present your argument in a different thread and lets see what happens.

[Shiranu]

I'm just going on what I've heard from polls and the like. It might be wrong, though. But many polls seem to indicate that atheists are among the most hated groups of people in the US.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigo ... sHated.htm

University of Minnesota Study on American Attitudes Towards Atheists & Atheism

This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...

Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....

Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%

So there atheists beat homosexuals in dislike by a good 17%.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... e-distrust

Atheists are one of the most disliked groups in America. Only 45 percent of Americans say they would vote for a qualified atheist presidential candidate, and atheists are rated as the least desirable group for a potential son-in-law or daughter-in-law to belong to.

According to multiple studies, atheists are both one of the least liked and least trusted groups in the United States, so I think its safe to say they face stigma at least as bad as homosexuals do, if not worse. You can come out on national T.V. as gay and you will be applauded for your bravery. If you did the same as an atheist, you would risk losing your job.

[aitm]

That certainly is interesting. However, not only have I never heard of, nor read of any atheist youth committing suicide due to this stigma I cannot even find a web site presenting evidence that it is enough to BE evidence. Gay, unfortunately, we have plenty of evidence. So while the evidence of stigma may be more as in more people find disfavor in atheism not to vote for one, it seems that the fewer who find homosexuality a stigma try to DO something to the wayward person. In other words, come out as atheist, you may lose your job, come out as gay and you could get your ass kicked. I'll stay with my belief that there is not the same type of stigma associated.

[Johan]

Fair enough. But of course any such hypothetical procedure would carry a risk of unknowable side effects which could take as long as 30 years or more to manifest.

Those risks would be unknowable until after the fact. So in light of that, would taking that chance still be the better option to you?

Now thats a good point, except it was not part of the OP so......er..........I ain't gonn play.  :Hangman:

Well you got me there. You're right that my premise wasn't at all part of the original scenario. So I don't blame you a bit for opting out given the additional twists I've presented.

[aitm]

Fair enough. But of course any such hypothetical procedure would carry a risk of unknowable side effects which could take as long as 30 years or more to manifest.

Those risks would be unknowable until after the fact. So in light of that, would taking that chance still be the better option to you?

Now thats a good point, except it was not part of the OP so......er..........I ain't gonn play.  :Hangman:

Well you got me there. You're right that my premise wasn't at all part of the original scenario. So I don't blame you a bit for opting out given the additional twists I've presented.

thanks for letting me off the hook. 8-)

[Shiranu]

That certainly is interesting. However, not only have I never heard of, nor read of any atheist youth committing suicide due to this stigma I cannot even find a web site presenting evidence that it is enough to BE evidence. Gay, unfortunately, we have plenty of evidence. So while the evidence of stigma may be more as in more people find disfavor in atheism not to vote for one, it seems that the fewer who find homosexuality a stigma try to DO something to the wayward person. In other words, come out as atheist, you may lose your job, come out as gay and you could get your ass kicked. I'll stay with my belief that there is not the same type of stigma associated.

Atheist suicide rates are really high. I would assume that it is because, again, atheism is socially stigmatized and gays aren't. When a gay kills himself because of bullying, its national news. When an atheist kills himself because of bullying, then it was just some teen who killed him self.

It's like pitbulls; if a pitbull kills someone, headline, "Pitbull kills child!". If a German Shepard or Rot kills someone, "Dog kills person!". Just because the media doesn't cover it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just shows that if anything atheists ARE more stigmatized because they do get bullied and commit suicide but no one cares enough to talk about it.

American Psycho.

RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members.

[aitm]

Interesting, post the link, I'd like to look at it.

[Shiranu]

Interestingly, the actual studie itself I cant get to work, it seems to have been removed from the American Psychological w/e site. However many sites still link and quote from it.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/05 ... the-world/

Amongst the highest countries with suicides, they are almost all atheist majority. Which then leads to the question if bullying is an issue since I would wager they aren't bullied as much in those countries.

[aitm]

Interestingly, the actual studie itself I cant get to work, it seems to have been removed from the American Psychological w/e site. However many sites still link and quote from it.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/05 ... the-world/

Amongst the highest countries with suicides, they are almost all atheist majority. Which then leads to the question if bullying is an issue since I would wager they aren't bullied as much in those countries.

I saw the adherents website earlier but as it is a christian based web I cannot give to much credibility to its findings and as to the wordpress, I see nothing that would suggest any connection to religion or lack there of.

[Shiranu]

Interestingly, the actual studie itself I cant get to work, it seems to have been removed from the American Psychological w/e site. However many sites still link and quote from it.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/05 ... the-world/

Amongst the highest countries with suicides, they are almost all atheist majority. Which then leads to the question if bullying is an issue since I would wager they aren't bullied as much in those countries.

I saw the adherents website earlier but as it is a christian based web I cannot give to much credibility to its findings and as to the wordpress, I see nothing that would suggest any connection to religion or lack there of.

The article it linked to was from American Psychology and to be fair I have seen multiple sites link to the study, but the thing is the study is no longer on the site... so maybe another study showed the results inaccurate or something.

[Jason78]

I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group....

Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%

So there atheists beat homosexuals in dislike by a good 17%.

I'm surprised that homosexuals didn't make the marriage list! :D

[Plu]

I just want to know why you think the option to make someone not gay is one worth taking to prevent stigma, but the option to make someone not atheist is not worth taking to prevent the same kind of stigma.

To me, one may be possible, the other is not. I don't think you can make someone atheist in-utero. And I don't see atheist anywhere near the same "stigma" that homosexuality is in todays world. I cannot see your argument at all similar. To me your argument is the same as saying make someone like philosophy, or pig latin vs being homosexual, I see no correlation to the OP. But present your argument in a different thread and lets see what happens.

Ok if that's what you think. I would think it's way easier to make someone religious than it would be to make some straight. (Making someone atheist in-utero isn't even part of the question; the question is if you can make someone irrational enough to be religious. I would agree that it would be very hard to make someone atheist in-utero.)