Dear atheists, we ex muslims are waiting for you

Started by baronvonrort, December 17, 2013, 09:59:38 PM

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Insult to Rocks

I hate Islam just as much as all the other religions, if not more, but I generally am never confronted by it where I live. I've got my hands full with the Mormons and Jehovah's Witness's in the NW, and the only Muslim I know is very civil and almost never talks about her religion, so I don't feel the need to bring it up.
Honestly though, as much as I feel for the oppressed in the East, we still have to deal with the oppressed in the west first. One thing at a time. And who knows who long it will take to whittle Christianity down to a manageable size.
"We must respect the other fellow\'s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken

Minimalist

I will gladly shit on muslims as readily as xtians.  There are simply more targets with crosses than flying carpets.
The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails.

-- H. L. Mencken

Johan

People who speak out against christians run the risk of being ostracized by their christian friends and family members. People who speak out against islam run the risk of being killed. I would imagine that difference has something to do with the number of people willing to speak out against one vs the other.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

The Skeletal Atheist

Islam needs to be put on a leash like western culture did with Christianity (yeah, I know they're terrible but they could be so much worse. We have them on a leash, and we're tightening that leash year by year). Unfortunately that would require a renaissance in the Islamic world, and I don't see that being done any time soon without a lot of deaths. Otherwise we're just going to have to wait for outside ideas to slowly work their way in.

As per Islam in the western world, we need to put our foot down and make sure they know in no uncertain terms what is and is not acceptable. We can do this without resorting to the far right, we just need to not be afraid to call them out on their shit every time they fuck up.

 Someone prints an image of Muhammad and they issue death threats? Arrest those who issued death threats and put the person who was threatened under protective custody, but most importantly absolutely refuse to apologize in any way. Explain that sometimes free speech is offensive, and they'll have to deal with it like adults if they want the benefits of society.
Some people need to be beaten with a smart stick.

Kein Mehrheit Fur Die Mitleid!

Kein Mitlied F�r Die Mehrheit!

Johan

Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"I
 Someone prints an image of Muhammad and they issue death threats? Arrest those who issued death threats and put the person who was threatened under protective custody, but most importantly absolutely refuse to apologize in any way. Explain that sometimes free speech is offensive, and they'll have to deal with it like adults if they want the benefits of society.
As my dad used to say, you tell them, I stutter. You need to remember these death threats and fatwas generally are not issued by those residing in the US or nations that would be likely to extradite. So the prospect of finding and arresting those who issue such things kind of creates a foreign relations 'difficulty' and opening that can of worms will lead to tons more bodies piling up than have been produced by all the fatwas ever issued.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

The Skeletal Atheist

I meant arresting those residing in western countries, I guess I should have specified that. Understandably a lot of the death threats will come from outside the country, that's why we have to put the person in protective custody. Mainly we need to not apologize for free speech. The individual can apologize, if they wish, but no government should apologize for letting people speak their minds.
Some people need to be beaten with a smart stick.

Kein Mehrheit Fur Die Mitleid!

Kein Mitlied F�r Die Mehrheit!

zarus tathra

Quote from: "vacillating"I can't help but wonder if the "ex-Muslims" are really ex-Muslims or people who hate Islam and are perpetrating a scam.

That is not to say that Islam doesn't have many faults.

More likely than you probably think.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

nanivzla

I personally have not met any radical Muslim yet (Fortunately) and of course I doubt I ever will in the US. There's a reason y they came to this country on the first place. An Iranian Muslim I met told me himself that the reason he came to live in the US is cause he is against stunning, which Ia still practiced in Iran, and having 2 daughters, he felt responsible for their well being and decided to move his whole family to the US. They are still Muslims, but they have their disagreements with how their country approaches the Koran.

StupidWiz

Quote from: "vacillating"I can't help but wonder if the "ex-Muslims" are really ex-Muslims or people who hate Islam and are perpetrating a scam.
The Christians over here also often accuse us atheists whenever their religion being criticized. They accuse us as a Muslim who wants to ruffle their feathers. It's somewhat funny thinking how their logic works. I mean, if we criticize a Muslim, suddenly they accuse us as a Right Wing bigots but when we criticize Christians here in Indonesia, we're accused as Muslim assholes. I mean, really?  :roll:  :roll:
... To teach superstitions as truths is the most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can they be in after years relieved of them. - Hypatia

Johan

Quote from: "The Skeletal Atheist"I meant arresting those residing in western countries, I guess I should have specified that. Understandably a lot of the death threats will come from outside the country, that's why we have to put the person in protective custody. Mainly we need to not apologize for free speech.
The problem is putting someone in protective custody doesn't accomplish that. Putting someone in protective custody is still putting them in custody. SUch an individual would no longer be able to live a normal life and in many cases would no longer be able to earn a living in the same field they previously worked in. IOW their life as they know it would have to end. And ending the person's life is the goal of the death threat so we would essentially accomplish nothing.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

AllPurposeAtheist

Islam has a hell of a lot more problems than whether atheists are allowed or not. Sunni's and Sheites might just end up killing each other off. Islam infighting is a much bigger problem..Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, N Africa, etc.. It's getting ugly there..
All hail my new signature!

Admit it. You're secretly green with envy.

VladK

Quote from: "frosty"There is definitely a noticeable bias among Atheists and self proclaimed "Liberals" that seem to ignore any Islam affiliated atrocities. I have noticed this tremendously over the years. I am always willing to give people the benefit of the doubt but I have seen it many times over the years.

Yes, I noticed too.

I think the problem a lot of atheists have (and let's be honest, it's mostly left-wing atheists) is that they're just far too biased against religion in general to see any nuances at all, so they think that anyone who singles out Islam as the most intolerant religion (which it is) has some secret racist agenda masked as criticism of Islam.

I think it's has to be said, no, all religions are not equal. They have different doctrines with different consequences.

Christianity does not have a doctrine of perpetual warfare against all unbelievers, there is nothing like verse 9:29 that mainstream Christians consider binding. The Old Convenant seems a bit like Sharia law but it's largely irrelevant even in mainstream Judaism. Christianity does not have a comprehensive set of laws used to govern society. Islam does, hence why it's more theocratic and why Muslim majority countries struggle with secular democracy more than Christian ones (though it's not entirely impossible if you consider secular Turkey). Manuals of Islamic law from all the major schools regulate business, family life, domestic and foreign policy in enough detail to constitute a political theocratic ideology and not merely a religion. It's certainly a tougher beast to tame.

And atheists who don't understand this and insist that "GRR RELIGION BAD ATHEIST SMASH RELIGION!" will be laughed at by Christians, Muslims and even other atheists who see through the false equivalence.

FrankDK

> Yes, I noticed too.

Do you have any evidence to support that?  I have never seen any reluctance on the part of atheists to criticize Islam, except maybe for the death threat thing.  Most of the posters here are in Christian countries, and except for flying airplanes into buildings, the big threat at home comes from Christians.  And the theists who post here are mostly Christians.

> I think the problem a lot of atheists have (and let's be honest, it's mostly left-wing atheists) is that they're just far too biased against religion in general to see any nuances at all, so they think that anyone who singles out Islam as the most intolerant religion (which it is) has some secret racist agenda masked as criticism of Islam.

Do you have any evidence for the inability or unwillingness of atheists to perceive a difference among religions?  Also, the notion that someone who is against Islam is racist is nonsense.  Islam is a religion, not a race.  I believe most atheists understand that.  Most Christians, however, do not.  Consider the death threats directed at this year's Miss America, who is of Indian descent.

> I think it's has to be said, no, all religions are not equal. They have different doctrines with different consequences.

Your claim seems to be that atheists don't agree with that.  Do you have examples or evidence?  All the atheists I know understand it very well.

> Christianity does not have a doctrine of perpetual warfare against all unbelievers, there is nothing like verse 9:29 that mainstream Christians consider binding. The Old Convenant seems a bit like Sharia law but it's largely irrelevant even in mainstream Judaism. Christianity does not have a comprehensive set of laws used to govern society. Islam does, hence why it's more theocratic and why Muslim majority countries struggle with secular democracy more than Christian ones (though it's not entirely impossible if you consider secular Turkey). Manuals of Islamic law from all the major schools regulate business, family life, domestic and foreign policy in enough detail to constitute a political theocratic ideology and not merely a religion. It's certainly a tougher beast to tame.

There is some truth to that, and some falsehood.  Many Christians believe that they have a comprehensive set of laws to govern society.  (Google "dominionists.")  I agree that they don't, to the extent that Islam does, but they seem to believe it, anyway.  They are making a big political push to dominate the US, and are having some success.

Islam is a mix of religion and politics, but so was Christianity a thousand years ago.  And the dominionists would like it to become so again.  Polls in the US show that fundamentalist Christians tend to vote as a block, and they tend to vote for right-wingers.

> And atheists who don't understand this and insist that "GRR RELIGION BAD ATHEIST SMASH RELIGION!" will be laughed at by Christians, Muslims and even other atheists who see through the false equivalence.

Do you have examples of atheists who don't understand that?

Your basic claim is false.  As Islam becomes more of a threat in western culture, you will see atheists becoming more vocal against it.  At the moment, we know it's a stupid, violent religion, but the violence is a long way from Kansas.

Frank

VladK

My experience with other atheists comes from encounters on other forums or YouTube channels. I haven't kept records, but I'll try to find an example soon.

Regarding dominionists, they don't appear to be significant in number at all and seem to be even rarer outside the US. Plus I've never actually seen a society governed in that way or similar way in recent times. (Even in the Middle Ages they never completely followed everything in the Old Testament.) Sharia regimes are plenty however.

FrankDK

> My experience with other atheists comes from encounters on other forums or YouTube channels. I haven't kept records, but I'll try to find an example soon.

Your experience could be different from mine.  It's possible that some atheists are inclined to give Islam a pass, but the most vocal don't.  Look at Bill Maher's take on Islam, or Christopher Hitchens', or Richard Dawkins.

> Regarding dominionists, they don't appear to be significant in number at all and seem to be even rarer outside the US. Plus I've never actually seen a society governed in that way or similar way in recent times. Sharia regimes are plenty however.

Dominionists had power disproportionate to their numbers; however, that seems to be abating a bit.  And calls for Sharia law in countries with many Muslim immigrants are becoming more strident.

But I still think their religion is stupid.

Frank