Author Topic: Determinism, not free will  (Read 4324 times)

Offline josephpalazzo (OP)

Determinism, not free will
« on: December 09, 2013, 10:02:30 AM »
This is taken from Jonathan MS Pearce.

First syllogism:
1) Every human choice or action is an event.
(2) Every event has its explanatory cause.
(3) Therefore, every human choice or action has its explanatory cause.

Building upon (3), we have our second syllogism:
(3) Every human choice or action has its explanatory cause.
(4) To have explanatory cause is not to be free.
(5) Therefore, human choice or action is not free. -

See more at: http://www.skepticink.com/tippling/2013 ... acohS.dpuf

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2013, 02:03:33 PM »
I reject number 4, on the basis that "to have no explanatory cause" is not what is really meant by the "free" in free will.
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Offline leo

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2013, 02:06:56 PM »
I'm not a freewill believer. Freewill is only a illusion.
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

Offline leo

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2013, 02:08:18 PM »
Quote from: "Hakurei Reimu"
I reject number 4, on the basis that "to have no explanatory cause" is not what is really meant by the "free" in free will.
^^^ this.
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2013, 02:26:10 PM »
Well as Sam Harris explained free will can't exist because it's either deterministic or random or a mix of both.
But it saddens me in a way cause it means a lot of bad things could not be avoided. However on another hand it means I won't have to blame people so much for what they do.

Offline leo

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2013, 02:34:03 PM »
Quote from: "vsenetak"
Well as Sam Harris explained free will can't exist because it's either deterministic or random or a mix of both.
But it saddens me in a way cause it means a lot of bad things could not be avoided. However on another hand it means I won't have to blame people so much for what they do.
I love Sam Harris books.
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2013, 02:41:11 PM »
I have a coupon for free will at krogers.. Buy ten, get one free..
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Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2013, 02:42:08 PM »
I'm still on the fence regarding determinism. It has very valid and compelling points.
But ... how is spontaneity accounted for? Sam Harris then has a point, and I can be on board with that. It's not all determinism or free will, it likely falls somewhere in between.

Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2013, 03:08:00 PM »
Seems like a silly play on words that changes nothing. I no more believe some spook is pulling all strings than I do that the same spook is 'allowing' me to decide.. I know I decide when to eat or shit or anything else and no spook influences it in any way, shape or form.
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Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2013, 03:10:42 PM »
Quote from: "Shol'va"
I'm still on the fence regarding determinism. It has very valid and compelling points.
But ... how is spontaneity accounted for? Sam Harris then has a point, and I can be on board with that. It's not all determinism or free will, it likely falls somewhere in between.
Just because it seems spontaneous to you does not mean it is spontaneous to the laws of physics.

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2013, 04:36:49 PM »
Can you be more specific what you mean by "laws of physics" in that context, just so I have clarity on what you mean by that.

Offline josephpalazzo (OP)

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2013, 05:23:44 PM »
Quote from: "Hakurei Reimu"
I reject number 4, on the basis that "to have no explanatory cause" is not what is really meant by the "free" in free will.

I could be wrong but I think what is meant here in the idea underlying cause-effect, there is no choice. Once all the factors are taken in as making up the cause, the effect has to follow. There is no choice while "free" implies that there would be several options in regard to the effect after the cause has taken place. Perhaps there are other ideas underlying "cause-effect" and "free will".

Comments.

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2013, 06:13:15 PM »
Quote from: "Shol'va"
Can you be more specific what you mean by "laws of physics" in that context, just so I have clarity on what you mean by that.
If I decide to do something spontaneously now without thinking it 5 seconds ago doesn't mean the physical processes in my brain did not lead me to it for a while.
It's like a bomb with timer. You don't see it until it explodes but it was there for a while. Hidden.

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2013, 06:32:29 PM »
Quote from: "AllPurposeAtheist"
Seems like a silly play on words that changes nothing. I no more believe some spook is pulling all strings than I do that the same spook is 'allowing' me to decide.. I know I decide when to eat or shit or anything else and no spook influences it in any way, shape or form.



But that is the problem, who are you that decides when all you are is a thought, and you have to think to make a decision or do it unconsciously. Your thinking is what determines your choice therefore it is determined, and I know you are going to be determined to show I'm wrong.  :P   #-o  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Re: Determinism, not free will
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2013, 06:35:57 PM »
I think this is largely a situation dependent on each person's perspective and understanding of what free will and determinism really mean. I think to some, determinism resonates as "I'm trapped, with no way out!" and free will meaning "I have the freedom to do whatever the hell I decide when I reach a fork in the road". The way I understand it is basically every decision we make is processed and made based on certain criteria and there's no escaping from that fact. Even if one says "I am going to decide all things today on pure chance, the roll of a dice", is still determinism :)
That's probably the big reason why people can't grapple with the concept of determinism. "What do you mean other things pre-determine my decisions". I personally get that and am OK with that.
But, what about situations where I wake up in the morning and I spontaneously decide to do something.
It depends on what I mean by "spontaneous". To me that means with no forethought or consideration.
How does determinism play into that Can anyone state with a very high degree of certainty (just so I don't use the term "absolute certainty") that, if we were to replay that day, my neurons would fire the same way and create the same sensation of want to do X instead of Y?