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Why does Islam embrace child rape?

Started by goodwithoutgod, December 01, 2013, 06:36:34 PM

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goodwithoutgod

Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"
Quote from: "Mister Agenda"Islam is way too vast for a generic claim like 'Islam embraces child rape' to be true. Shia Muslims believe Asha was as much as 10 years older than the Sunni do, and there are political reasons why the Sunni would prefer her to be younger and the Shia would prefer her to be older. Quran-only Muslims reject the Hadiths as authoritative, and Shia and Sunni differ on which Hadiths they accept as authentic. To my knowledge, all Imams in modern times who have indicated that marriages at such a young age are acceptable have been Sunni Salafists operating within theocratic regimes.

Of course, Mary was five years older than Asha when she was married to Joseph, so that's fine and no one ever starts a thread about Christians embracing child rape. Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed, right? According to tradition, Joseph was 90 when 12 year-old Mary was taken into his household to raise his youngest son James. They didn't marry until she was the ripe old age of 14 1/2. There is just as much reason to believe this account is factual as there is to believe the same of the Hadiths.

Christianity has a very serious problem with child rape itself no doubt, and their continuous denial and neglect when it comes to victims is nothing less then despicable.

But with Islam there is a very serious distinction where you have clergy members who do not condemn it in any way whatsoever.

Great point, and the reason I bring this issue up. In the West, this is a crime as it should be. In the middle east, it is sanctioned by "god".

Allah managed to hand down quite a few "revelations" that sanctioned Muhammad's personal pursuit of sex to the doubters around him. Interestingly they have become part of the the eternal, infallible word of the Qur'an, to be memorized by generations of Muslims for whom they have no possible relevance.

Qur'an (33:37) - "But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed." No doubt millions of young Muslims, trying to outdo one another at memorizing the Qur'an, have wondered about what this verse means and why it is there. In fact, this is a "revelation" of convenience that Allah just happened to hand down at a time when Muhammad lusted after his daughter-in-law, Zaynab, - a state of affairs that disturbed local customs. The verse "commands" Muhammad to marry the woman (following her husband's gracious divorce). As for why this should be part of the eternal word of God...?

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; " This is another special command that Muhammad handed down to himself that allows virtually unlimited sex, divinely sanctioned by Allah. One assumes that this "revelation" was meant to assuage some sort of disgruntlement in the community over Muhammad's hedonism.

Qur'an (33:51) - "You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased" This is in reference to a situation in which Muhammad's wives were grumbling about his preference for sleeping with a slave girl (Mary the Copt) instead of them. Accordingly, Muhammad may sleep with whichever wife (or slave) he wishes without having to hear the others complain... as revealed in Allah's literal and perfect words to more than a billion Muslims.

Qur'an (66:1-5) - "O Prophet! Why ban thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives?..." Another remarkable verse of sexual convenience concerns an episode in which Muhammad's wives were jealous of the attention that he was giving to a Christian slave girl. But, as he pointed out to them, to neglect the sexual availability of his slaves was against Allah's will for him!

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." Allah even permitted Muhammad and his men to have sex with married slaves, such as those captured in battle.

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

This is just a sample of the early Muslim traditions reporting Muhammad's marriage to the young Aisha, but it is sufficient to show that she certainly wasn't fifteen years old at the time of the consummation, as some Muslims claim.

here is an educational link for you showing the Islamic proof that his wife was 9yo upon marriage/sex.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

Muslims are quick to point out immorality around the world, especially in the West. It seems, then, that they are suggesting a very inconsistent message. When confronted with an immoral practice in another culture, Muslims cry out in one accord, "We condemn these practices, for they are against the eternal, perfect, and unalterable Law of God!" Yet, whenever the moral character of Muhammad is being scrutinized, Muslims suddenly say, "Don't judge Muhammad! You should remember that he was from a different culture! Marrying young girls was common in Arabia, and it still is, thanks to Muhammad's precedent. Different people have different moral standards, so no one should worry about Muhammad's sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl."

This convenient switch from moral absolutism to moral relativism is logically unacceptable. If it is wrong to judge the practices of another culture, then both Muhammad and the Qur'an were wrong for condemning immoral practices in Arabia. But if condemning immoral practices is acceptable, then Muslim apologists need a better response to criticisms of Muhammad's relationship with Aisha.

First, Consider a husband on trial for beating his wife. When he takes the stand, he explains, "Your Honor, many women are victims of spousal abuse, and they need someone to talk to. Out of the kindness of my heart, I decided to beat my wife, so that she would be able to comfort other women whose husbands beat them." Such an explanation would never be accepted (except, perhaps, in countries under Islamic rule, where the Qur'an guarantees a husband's right to beat his wife). Besides, if Muhammad had outlawed sex with children instead of becoming a willing participant, little girls wouldn't have to worry about sex, and they wouldn't need to question Aisha.

Second, it isn't necessary for a lawgiver to institute laws by performing actions that create a precedent. In other words, Muhammad didn't need to marry a young girl in order establish a law about marrying girls who had reached puberty. Muhammad, as Islam's lawgiver, could have simply issued a decree. For instance, Muhammad allowed husbands to beat their wives. Was it necessary for Muhammad to beat his wives in order to establish this as a law? Certainly not. Similarly, when an American lawmaker says that killing someone in self-defense is acceptable, no one argues that the lawmaker must go out and kill someone in self-defense if his law is to stand. Hence, the argument that Muhammad needed to marry a young girl to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage completely fails.

Third, the Muslim claim that Aisha was a "precocious child" strains the evidence. Aisha herself reports that, when she was taken to Muhammad's house, she was playing on a swing with her friends. She was also still playing with dolls. Based on the evidence, Aisha sounds like a normal little girl, not like a young adult. Besides, Muhammad didn't marry her because she was precocious; he married her because he was dreaming about her.

Fourth, it is unlikely that God was using Muhammad's relationship with Aisha to establish puberty as the appropriate age for marriage, since the Qur'an itself seems to allow marriage to prepubescent girls. According to Surah 65:4, a man must wait three months to divorce a wife who hasn't yet reached menses. If Islam allows a man to divorce a girl who isn't old enough to have her period, it follows that Islam also allows a man to marry a girl who hasn't yet reached menses. And if the Qur'an allows marriage to prepubescent girls, then Muhammad's marriage to Aisha would in no way rule out such a practice.

Fifth, Muslims search for reasons to justify Muhammad's relationship with Aisha because they are convinced that everything Muhammad did had a divine purpose behind it. When critics point out Muhammad's numerous murders and assassinations, Muslims claim that these violent acts were just. When critics note the extent of Muhammad's polygamy, or his participation in the slave-trade, or his countless robberies, Muslims provide answers based on the view that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example. Similarly, when Muslims are confronted with the evidence for Muhammad's sexual encounters with Aisha, they assume that there must have been a reason for it. They then invent reasons for Muhammad's behavior (i.e. the other little girls needed someone to talk to about sex), and they offer these reasons as a defense of Muhammad's morality. However, non-Muslims do not share this confidence in Muhammad's moral perfection. Indeed, when non-Muslims hear about Muhammad's violence, his greed, his polygamy, and his support of spousal abuse, we aren't as quick to say "He must have had a reason" as Muslims seem to be. Because of this, Muslim justifications for Muhammad's marriage to Aisha sound hollow when presented as a logical defense of his actions.

Finally, Muslim explanations for Muhammad's behavior fail to take into account the dangers that accompany sex at a young age. Many Muslims claim that, as soon as a young girl gets her first period, she is ready to bear children. This "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" mentality, aside from being disgusting, is completely false. A nine-year-old girl isn't ready for sex or children, even if she reaches menses earlier than other little girls. Children that young are still growing; when they become pregnant, their bodies divert nutritional resources to the developing fetus, depriving the growing girls of much-needed vitamins and minerals. Further, complications often result from adolescent pregnancies, because the bodies of the young girls simply aren't ready to give birth.

Jmpty

So, you have a problem with Muslims. I get it. Religion is bad, but Islam is ESPECIALLY bad. Just a word of advice, don't go to India. You might find some other people to have a problem with.
???  ??

vsenetak

Because the people who wrote quran said so.

PickelledEggs

Quote from: "vsenetak"Because the people who wrote quran said so.
=D> Very insightful...

vsenetak

Quote from: "PickelledEggs"
Quote from: "vsenetak"Because the people who wrote quran said so.
=D> Very insightful...
Yeah the world is tough.

leo

Quote from: "vsenetak"Because the people who wrote quran said so.
The Koran is good for toilet paper.
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

vsenetak

Quote from: "leo"
Quote from: "vsenetak"Because the people who wrote quran said so.
The Koran is good for toilet paper.
I'm not a muslim  :-|

Savior2006

Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"Christianity has a very serious problem with child rape itself no doubt, and their continuous denial and neglect when it comes to victims is nothing less then despicable.

But with Islam there is a very serious distinction where you have clergy members who do not condemn it in any way whatsoever.

Personally, I don't see much of a distinction between explicitly condoning it, and explicitly ignoring it and blaming the victims when when they ruin the self-image of your organization.
It took science to do what people imagine God can do.
--ApostateLois

"The closer you are to God the further you are from the truth."
--St Giordano

Paradox

Three points:

1) Islam is not unique in its "embracing of child rape".
     a) Hinduism's Brhad?rankyaka: Surely, a woman who has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period is the most auspicious of women. When she has changed her clothes at the end of her menstrual period, therefore, one should approach that splendid woman and invite her to have sex. Should she refuse to consent, he should bribe her. If she still refuses, he should beat her with a stick or with his fists and overpower her, saying: "I take away the splendor from you with my virility and splendor.    It should be noted that a female was considered a "woman" as young as 11

    b) Christianity/Judaism - Forces a rapist to marry his rape victim, if she is unmarried and a virgin(as punishment). The only reason that the rape is indicated as a violation, however, is because she was 'clean' before she was defiled by the act outside of marriage. Under biblical definition, rape is simply not possible if the two are married, and two can be married at extremely young age.

    c) I could go on with a lot of other religions, but I'll stop for brevity's sake.

2) "Rape" is a modern term and simply does not translate to writings predating 16th century. Rape is a word with both legal and moral implications. Back then, such a term by itself, would have had no moral or legal implications. That goes for just about anyone in the middle east back then, regardless of religion. A more accurate terminology would be forced copulation, which was par goes the course for the rest of the world at that time, as well as others in the animal kingdom. It  is now that civilization has advanced far enough to allow for women the voice to say 'no' and it carry legal water, in most of the civilized world, that is. Of course the world has a long way to go, including the west and ESPECIALLY the middle east.

3) Society has a history of treating women, and others beneath them, as mere objects. Religion really has a way of setting those objectifications in stone, so to speak. Regions where religion is still overtly dominant and oppressive suffer the greatest from that mindset and will not be able to break free from those shackles until the religion(s) in their society become irrelevant enough for common sense humanism to take its place.

frosty

I was actually about to talk about how all old religions and cultures embraced some degree of pedophilia, but Paradox beat me to it. Islam "embraces child rape" because the tribal Arab culture from which the first Muslims descended was rife with such activity. That, however, extends to all old religions and cultures. Religion and culture are like two disfigured, conjoined twins.

Cocoa Beware

Quote from: "Savior2006"
Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"Christianity has a very serious problem with child rape itself no doubt, and their continuous denial and neglect when it comes to victims is nothing less then despicable.

But with Islam there is a very serious distinction where you have clergy members who do not condemn it in any way whatsoever.

Personally, I don't see much of a distinction between explicitly condoning it, and explicitly ignoring it and blaming the victims when when they ruin the self-image of your organization.

The difference I see is quite stark; Mohammed's relationship with Aisha means you have this perverted behavior imbedded into the texts themselves.

goodwithoutgod

Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"
Quote from: "Savior2006"
Quote from: "Cocoa Beware"Christianity has a very serious problem with child rape itself no doubt, and their continuous denial and neglect when it comes to victims is nothing less then despicable.

But with Islam there is a very serious distinction where you have clergy members who do not condemn it in any way whatsoever.

Personally, I don't see much of a distinction between explicitly condoning it, and explicitly ignoring it and blaming the victims when when they ruin the self-image of your organization.

The difference I see is quite stark; Mohammed's relationship with Aisha means you have this perverted behavior imbedded into the texts themselves.

which is exactly my point.