Is Quantum Mechanics Complete?

[Solitary]

By by nature I am a skeptic and belong to the skeptic society. Not only am I skeptical of religious claims, but those of science. I just read a book Robert Nadeau, a historian of science and professor of Emglish, and Menas Kafatos, a physicist and professor of Interdisciplinary Science, called The Non-Local Universe.  And also another book about the holistic universe. I have to comment on what they have written because I don't agree with a lot of it.  

In the case of the EPR experiment, the results are" interpreted" to imply that a measurement performed on a particle at one point in space affects the results of a measurement at a distant point, even though any signal between the two would have to  travel faster than the speed of light. This also implies we live in a holistic universe like a living thing. Of course theists and spiritualist would be delighted to read this.

They refer to the Aspect experiments that give us a view that lies well outside any common sense conception of matter. This experiment, as well as others, confirm the predictions of quantum mechanics. They base this on Bohn himself who took up spirituality. His experiment did not in fact demonstrate a superluminal connection between two particles. It has never been shown that a measurement of one particle specifically affected the measurement of its partner from the "same" source.

All experiments like this produce results that are "statistical " distributions of the measurements of particle pairs and  compare them with statistical predictions of the theory of local hidden varibles as opposed to quantum mechanics, just like the double slit experiment, the wave picture does not apply to individual particles but to many of them. Quantum mechanics is a theory that calculates probabilities and not the behavior of individual particals.

The wave function is nonlocal, but it is also an abstract mathematical object like a savings account. The models of quantum mechanics are artifacts, as viewed this way and they successfully describe data, it is complete. It is more reasonable to me to assign "reality" to localized particles than quantum fields or wave functions. Even when measuring wavelength it is detecting particles and not waves. Keep those cards and letters coming!  :P  Solitary

[josephpalazzo]

In the case of the EPR experiment, the results are" interpreted" to imply that a measurement performed on a particle at one point in space affects the results of a measurement at a distant point, even though any signal between the two would have to  travel faster than the speed of light.

The misinterpretation of EPR is that measurement on one particle influences the measurement on the other, which it isn't the case. What is true here is only because the particles involved must obey the conservation of  momentum.  Inititally, there is one particle at rest decaying into two particles moving in opposite direction. Therefore by conservation of momentum (both linear and angular), if you measure the spin or momentum of one particle, you know automatically the measurement on the second particle. There is no mystery here, just misunderstanding.

Total spin/momentum before = Total spin/momentum after

0 = s[sub:kviovx3q]1[/sub:kviovx3q]/p[sub:kviovx3q]1[/sub:kviovx3q] + s[sub:kviovx3q]2[/sub:kviovx3q]/p[sub:kviovx3q]2[/sub:kviovx3q]

Therefore, s[sub:kviovx3q]1[/sub:kviovx3q]/p[sub:kviovx3q]1[/sub:kviovx3q] = - s[sub:kviovx3q]2[/sub:kviovx3q]/p[sub:kviovx3q]2[/sub:kviovx3q]

The misinterpretation is from those who believe that these particles "live" in a superposition state, and therefore when a measurement is taken, the wave collapses instantaneously. So according to this flawed reasoning, once a measurement is taken on one particle, the wave collapses instantaneously everywhere in the universe, making the second particle, which could be as far away as Andromeda - so the argument goes - must fall into the prescribed state according to the rules of QM. All this is pure nonsense, as you correctly sensed. The superposition state is just a mathematical formulation. No experiment can tell us that these particles really "live" in such states. But this mathematical scheme allows us to calculate the probabilities of outcomes, it in no way confirms that such particles really live in some superposition state. Recall what I have already said: See viewtopic.php?f=81&t=2676&p=966647&hilit=particles#p966647

[AllPurposeAtheist]

So this is how you answer your wife when she asks if you want to fool around? Quantum mechanics.. :)

It's soooo spiritual.. :-k

[Solitary]

In the case of the EPR experiment, the results are" interpreted" to imply that a measurement performed on a particle at one point in space affects the results of a measurement at a distant point, even though any signal between the two would have to  travel faster than the speed of light.

The misinterpretation of EPR is that measurement on one particle influences the measurement on the other, which it isn't the case. What is true here is only because the particles involved must obey the conservation of  momentum.  Inititally, there is one particle at rest decaying into two particles moving in opposite direction. Therefore by conservation of momentum (both linear and angular), if you measure the spin or momentum of one particle, you know automatically the measurement on the second particle. There is no mystery here, just misunderstanding.

Total spin/momentum before = Total spin/momentum after

0 = s[sub:2ee5wawf]1[/sub:2ee5wawf]/p[sub:2ee5wawf]1[/sub:2ee5wawf] + s[sub:2ee5wawf]2[/sub:2ee5wawf]/p[sub:2ee5wawf]2[/sub:2ee5wawf]

Therefore, s[sub:2ee5wawf]1[/sub:2ee5wawf]/p[sub:2ee5wawf]1[/sub:2ee5wawf] = - s[sub:2ee5wawf]2[/sub:2ee5wawf]/p[sub:2ee5wawf]2[/sub:2ee5wawf]

The misinterpretation is from those who believe that these particles "live" in a superposition state, and therefore when a measurement is taken, the wave collapses instantaneously. So according to this flawed reasoning, once a measurement is taken on one particle, the wave collapses instantaneously everywhere in the universe, making the second particle, which could be as far away as Andromeda - so the argument goes - must fall into the prescribed state according to the rules of QM. All this is pure nonsense, as you correctly sensed. The superposition state is just a mathematical formulation. No experiment can tell us that these particles really "live" in such states. But this mathematical scheme allows us to calculate the probabilities of outcomes, it in no way confirms that such particles really live in some superposition state. Recall what I have already said: See http://atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php? ... es#p966647

Thanks for explaining that so well!  =D>  Solitary

[Solitary]

So this is how you answer your wife when she asks if you want to fool around? Quantum mechanics.. :)

It's soooo spiritual.. :-k

Did you know APA that Joseph is so good at mathematics that when he is constipated he works it out with a pencil?  :shock:    Solitary

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Ouch.. I'm much better at language than math thank 'god'..

[josephpalazzo]

So this is how you answer your wife when she asks if you want to fool around? Quantum mechanics.. :)

It's soooo spiritual.. :-k

Did you know APA that Joseph is so good at mathematics that when he is constipated he works it out with a pencil?  :shock:    Solitary

Sorry to rain on your parade but I'm never constipated - my wife makes sure I eat lots of fruits and vegetables.

 :P

[josephpalazzo]

Here's the latest craze on foundational (hint: a waste of time) QM:

Quantum Cheshire Cats