Author Topic: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks  (Read 6431 times)

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2013, 07:26:05 PM »
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Offline Shiranu

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2013, 08:11:47 PM »
I just have a hard time believing Assad gave the order; perhaps forces loyal to him did without his approval, but... he is too smart of man to do something that incredibly stupid.

I realize power can make people stupid, especially when your country is in the middle of an extremely violent civil war... but again, I just don't seeing such a well-educated man making such a bad mistake. My money is more on someone loyal to him using the weapons without order.

Offline Hydra009

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2013, 12:42:49 AM »
Quote from: "Shiranu"
I just have a hard time believing Assad gave the order; perhaps forces loyal to him did without his approval, but... he is too smart of man to do something that incredibly stupid.
http://http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2013, 01:00:53 AM »
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"
I agree with Eugeny, Assad would only lose if he used gas on his people. The rest of the world would crack down on him in a second.

But the rebels would have huge gains, they could fake an attack even, use it on their own people even, and it would appear that the government was using gas. They get immediate sympathy at the least, and foreign intervention on their side at the best.
Or, in actuality, they get the US president heading down the road to apparent defeat of authorization of military action until Russia suggests a convoluted plan to eventually destroy Syria's (declared) chemical weapons by inserting unarmed UN personnel into the middle of a civil war. The extent of the world's "crack down" on Assad appears to be a (claimed) slight increase in training and arming of rebels.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Offline Shiranu

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2013, 02:46:09 AM »
Quote from: "Hydra009"
Quote from: "Shiranu"
I just have a hard time believing Assad gave the order; perhaps forces loyal to him did without his approval, but... he is too smart of man to do something that incredibly stupid.
http://http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

Not really, no. Statistically it is less likely, therefor it is more logical to assume that someone in the forces acted with out his consent. This is far more plausible given the information we have.

I implied I think it is possible, I just don't think it the most likely scenario. I'm not saying I believe it's impossible, just less likely than the alternative.

Offline frosty

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 03:46:25 AM »
Quote from: "Poison Tree"
Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"
I agree with Eugeny, Assad would only lose if he used gas on his people. The rest of the world would crack down on him in a second.

But the rebels would have huge gains, they could fake an attack even, use it on their own people even, and it would appear that the government was using gas. They get immediate sympathy at the least, and foreign intervention on their side at the best.
Or, in actuality, they get the US president heading down the road to apparent defeat of authorization of military action until Russia suggests a convoluted plan to eventually destroy Syria's (declared) chemical weapons by inserting unarmed UN personnel into the middle of a civil war. The extent of the world's "crack down" on Assad appears to be a (claimed) slight increase in training and arming of rebels.

Well, Assad has never, ever accepted the possibility of any type of true uprising against his family rule. In his mind, that's impossible, Syrians would never do that. The chemical weapons being destroyed is a "both side claims victory" kind of situation, where all parties involved claimed that diplomacy (and a muddled mix of threats) gave them what they wanted. Even the regime is saying that the chem weapons being destroyed is part of it's "reforms".....

The rebels are not powerful enough to muscle their way to a victory, so unless Assad steps down as part of some transitional government formed at Geneva, then the war will go on without even a break. Make no mistake, regardless of what "terrorists" have done, Assad has created enough enemies not only in Syria but in the Sunni world that if he doesn't step down, I can see him being assassinated by someone with a grudge. Strip away Syria's "civilized" polished image and you get a mentality similar to that of Afghanistan. Assad has done absolutely gruesome things and there are people who will make it their life's goal to make him pay for that.

And I remember when the videos about the rabbits came out. What proof do you have that rebels used the chemicals to threaten civilians if they support the government? I specifically remember a translated video where they say they are warning civilians, and trying to educate them about the danger of Assad using chemicals on them.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:52:18 AM by frosty »

Offline Shiranu

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 03:51:02 AM »
I always have a hard time understand dictators sometimes... yes, I realize it is your country, and your father's before that... but he didn't even want to be a politician but instead a doctor until his brother died and it was forced on him.

Now seems like as good of time as any to cut your loses, pack your bags with enough money to buy 50 private islands and disappear. You get to quit a job you didn't want, you keep your head attached to the rest of your body and not a pike, and you can attempt to make history by being an unexplained disappearance. Seems like a win/win to me :.

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2013, 06:52:23 AM »
Quote from: "Shiranu"
I always have a hard time understand dictators sometimes.
Assad is not a dictator. There will be presidential election in Syria next year. In interwiev to german magazine Der Spiegel he said that he is not sure, if he will participate in election as candidate. It seems he is very tired of fighting.
I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle.

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 11:41:43 AM »
Quote from: "Shiranu"
Not really, no. Statistically it is less likely, therefor it is more logical to assume that someone in the forces acted with out his consent. This is far more plausible given the information we have.
Can I see those statistics?

Quote from: "Shiranu"
I always have a hard time understand dictators sometimes... yes, I realize it is your country, and your father's before that... but he didn't even want to be a politician but instead a doctor until his brother died and it was forced on him.

Now seems like as good of time as any to cut your loses, pack your bags with enough money to buy 50 private islands and disappear. You get to quit a job you didn't want, you keep your head attached to the rest of your body and not a pike, and you can attempt to make history by being an unexplained disappearance. Seems like a win/win to me :.
It is more that just him and his family (there was a lot of speculation early on that it was his mother who was really urging him to fight/crack down). It has very much turned into an ethnic/religious war. It is not as if, were Assad to step down, the two sides would magically become friends. Maybe that would have happened if he had steeped down or made reforms early on (back in the protests or early into the war), though I'm guessing he did not believe/know just how large the opposition was at that time. I think that Assad actually believes that he is preventing his people/sect from being massacred; that is how he can justify--at least to himself--any action he takes.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Offline zarus tathra

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2013, 12:35:31 PM »
Apparently, the doctors in the video tending to the "sarin gas" victims weren't wearing any protective gear, which is insane, since areas covered in nerve gas are toxic for a very long time afterwards.

Quote
"At the moment, I am not totally convinced because the people that are helping them are without any protective clothing and without any respirators," said Paula Vanninen, director of Verifin, the Finnish Institute for Verification of the Chemical Weapons Convention.

"In a real case, they would also be contaminated and would also be having symptoms."

John Hart, head of the Chemical and Biological Security Project at Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said he had not seen the telltale evidence in the eyes of the victims that would be compelling evidence of chemical weapons use.

"Of the videos that I've seen for the last few hours, none of them show pinpoint pupils... this would indicate exposure to organophosphorus nerve agents," he said.

Gwyn Winfield, editor of CBRNe World magazine, which specialises in chemical weapons issues, said the evidence did not suggest that the chemicals used were of the weapons-grade that the Syrian army possesses in its stockpiles.

"We're not seeing reports that doctors and nurses... are becoming fatalities, so that would suggest that the toxicity of it isn't what we would consider military sarin.
?"Belief is always most desired, most pressingly needed, when there is a lack of will." -Friedrich Nietzsche

Ideals are imperfect. Morals are self-serving.

Offline frosty

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 03:52:53 PM »
Quote from: "Eugeny Anatolievich"
Quote from: "Shiranu"
I always have a hard time understand dictators sometimes.
Assad is not a dictator. There will be presidential election in Syria next year. In interwiev to german magazine Der Spiegel he said that he is not sure, if he will participate in election as candidate. It seems he is very tired of fighting.

Well.... he inherited power from his father, twice being "re-elected" in a referendum where he, both times, received 97 percent of the vote. Parliament lowered the age to be President down to his specific age in 2000 so he could become President, and he always ran unopposed in single party events. His tenure has seen hundreds of thousands of Syrians die, 100,000+ be thrown into torture dungeons, 7 million are displaced inside the country, around 2 million (a majority of them children) are refugees living in squalid camps, Syria's infrastructure has been destroyed, and unspeakable massacres have been committed where multiple sources of witnesses all say it was either his soldiers or his militiamen carrying out the massacre in his name.

But nahhhhhh, he ain't a dictator.

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2013, 05:06:18 PM »
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
So maybe it was the rebels following through on that threat. Or, they were trying their best to frame the government and get the US involved, since there was the "red line" that Obama talked about.
Wow, this has to be new information that couldn't have possibly factored into any decisions made by the Obama administration.  I'm sure that they will be exceedingly thankful for this new information being brought forward!
... I swear, one day religion is going to physically poison me to death.

Offline PopeyesPappy

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 08:14:22 PM »
Quote from: "zarus tathra"
Apparently, the doctors in the video tending to the "sarin gas" victims weren't wearing any protective gear, which is insane, since areas covered in nerve gas are toxic for a very long time afterwards.

Chemical weapons training was more than 30 years for me, but I didn't think that sounded right so I looked it up. The internet isn't exactly covered up with information of this type, but I did find a couple of local type EMS sites that talked about the persistence of nerve agents. According to them GB (sarin) breaks down rather quickly. Generally speaking it is going to be broken down in about 30 minutes. Even under the best of conditions it should all be gone in under 8 hours. By comparison VX which is considered to be a persistent nerve agent would usually be broken down in less than 24 hours.
Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.


Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2013, 02:50:10 AM »
Quote from: "frosty"
Syria's infrastructure has been destroyed
Who has destroyed Syria's infrastracture? Bandits have. They are supported and sponsored by USA and Saudi Arabia, the best friend of USA.  

Quote
multiple sources of witnesses
Do you know proverb: "He's lying like a witness."? I remember Serbia. There were multiple sources of witnesses too. And U.S. were supporting and sponsoring albanian bandits, drug dealers and kidnappers and calling them rebels and fighters for freedom. They were witnesses. Some later Carla Del Ponte has written the book where she told that everything was the great lie. And now the same lie repeats again. And chemical weapon in Iraq? When the U.S. has learned that Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction, they started the war. I think when Assad will give up the last unit of chemical weapon, U.S. will start the war. Only the weapon of mass destruction guarantees protection from U.S. aggression.
Sometimes everything seems like deja vu. U.S. are the Imperia of Evil. U.S. are the kingdom of lie. U.S. are the enemy of peace.
I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle.

Re: Regarding Syria's "Nerve Gas" attacks
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2013, 06:20:06 AM »
I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle.