For The Thrill, Or For Food?

[Shiranu]

"You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

"You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

"You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

 "You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

"You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

"You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

"You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

"You know, Hitler would have said the same thing."

Best. Quote. Ever.

[Solitary]

Yep, hunting is so much fun without the thrill of the kill, and does so much good. Watch the boredom of waiting for a clean shot and no thrill or excitement from shooting an arrow into a dear and watching it struggle for life instead of having to suffer starvation. It's obvious that shooting the dear wasn't a thrill or fun watching it thrash on the ground in agony. What is more fun though than taking a life and make a clean shot so it doesn't suffer starvation. And just think how good venison tastes when it's bled correctly and the good you do giving it to people that need food. Such a noble sport. I think I'll buy a hunting rifle and go buffalo hunting because I love buffalo burgers. I promise I won't get excited and have a thrill killing it. =P~  Solitary.

      [youtube:3kqsobuy]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZPn3Lep6ho[/youtube:3kqsobuy]

[Plu]

I'm pretty sure there's a logical fallacy for what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Solitary]

How many hunters would be willing to give up killing game and accept this?

I have talked with a great many hunters,`` she said. ``When I talk with them, they end up throwing their hands in the air and saying, `You just don`t understand!` And I agree--I don`t understand how people can kill animals and derive joy out of it.

``The interesting thing is, many hunters don`t fit the stereotype at all. Many of them I have found to be caring people. They tell me that they like to hunt because they enjoy being outdoors having good times with their friends
--and that if an animal comes along, they feel obligated to shoot it. But they tell me that they get no thrill out of doing the actual killing.``

So Diane Pearson thought a lot about it, and she came up with a new plan for hunting. She has committed it to paper, and I will excerpt some of it here.

``Hunters would gather in their comrade packs, as they`ve always done, and prepare for a week`s worth of camping and hunting. They would purchase their hunting licenses, and go out looking for deer.

``Once established in the wilderness, each hunter would stalk his prey and, as he got within range, sight in on the target with an odd-looking rifle. Aiming carefully, he shoots. A sound very much like the sound of a bullet exploding from the rifle cracks the air, and the herd stampedes. Even though no animal has fallen to the ground, the hunter has been successful. A small light on the rifle glows red, indicating a direct kill--and an instant photograph of his target falls to the hunter`s feet.

``Pleased and confident, the hunter makes his way back to the camp with his `kill.` When he arrives at camp, another one of his buddies has also made a kill and is already displaying the photograph. The two hunters compare photographs and establish who made the bigger and better `kill.`

``The others hunters try, over the next few days, to also make their hunting licenses pay off. Soon there are several pictures hanging at the campsite.

``On the day of their scheduled return, the hunters swing by the ranger station to register their kills. A ranger examines the photograph to verify its authenticity, and then directs the hunter to drive around to the back of the station. There the ranger directs that an appropriate deer carcass be tied onto the hunter`s vehicle. The kill is matched according to sex and size of the animal in the photograph as closely as possible.
``Triumphantly, the hunter returns home.``

Ah . . . but now you are asking, where do these deer carcasses come from? Diane Pearson has an answer to that.
``Two weeks before the hunting season officially opens, armed rangers gather at selected spots in the woods. They go out in teams to where herds have been spotted earlier in the day by helicopter. They then kill selected animals: those animals that are old, sick, or obviously small and weak are shot. Then, all except the sick are hauled away in refrigerated trucks and tested for disease, to later be distributed to the successful hunters.

``The result? No hunters are accidentally shot or killed. Farmers can rest easier knowing their cattle are safe. No wounded animals will be left to suffer on their own if the hunter is unable to catch up to them.

``And, most importantly, the deer population is thinned--not by taking the biggest and strongest (those that can best survive a long, cold winter without starving), but by taking those that appear to have the greatest possibility of starving. This `more natural selection` would insure that the larger, stronger animals would be alive to breed in the spring, thus providing a deer population that would be larger, stronger and healthier for generations to come.

``There is only one real change in this method of hunting from the old method: The hunter does not actually kill the animal himself. But, then, no hunter I have ever talked with admitted the killing aspect to be a joy of hunting. The reasons most hunters cite are: saving animals from starving through the winter; hunting for food; getting back to nature; the skill needed in stalking the prey and in the aim required to kill it; an excuse for the
`boys` to get together; and tradition.``

Diane Pearson said that, as much sense as her method makes to her, it will probably never come to pass.
``For all the hunters` protestations,`` she said, ``there are still a lot of people out there who secretly believe that they cannot be real men until they have personally destroyed a life. I guess that`s the sad truth.``

The Thing about hunting is that it wouldn't be Called hunting without the Process of killing an animal! As for the thrill, That comes from the hunt itself! The pure adrenaline rush you get from getting so close to an animal Being at one with nature, is really quite thrilling! Hunting wouldn't be hunting without the killing, it would just be nature watching!

This would really make an interesting study and see how many still liked hunting without the kill.  Solitary

[Jmpty]

When I was 14, I went deer hunting with my great uncle's family in Northern Minnesota. I was excited, as it sounded so cool, into the woods, guns, tracking and stalking and all that. I shot a medium sized buck, and felt so proud as all the older guys patted me on the back, but when I walked up and saw that deer on the ground, dead, I felt sick, as in "why the hell did I just kill an innocent wild animal?" It got even worse when my cousin shot a deer as it was running away from him. It was hit in the ass and fell down. It was literally screaming like a baby until he came up and cut its throat with a knife. I never went hunting again.

[Solitary]

I'm pretty sure there's a logical fallacy for what you're trying to accomplish here.

No there isn't! Maybe the next post will show you.  That you are poisoning the well with a fallacy doesn't help your argument or show I'm wrong about hunters like to kill. Would you still hunt if there wasn't a killing involved? If the answer is yes honestly you proved me wrong. So far the killing part has been avoided by issues that have nothing to do with my claim. It's like the killing never happened, even though they feel bad after, to people that claim they didn't like it for the thrill of the kill just the hunt and being out in nature, like feeling bad makes it OK to kill. Solitary

[Plu]

I don't actually hunt at all. Don't want to, either. But that doesn't make posting anecdotes and videos of specific people into an argument. It remains anecdotal evidence.

[Solitary]

So I made a informal fallacy. But it does show that these hunters think it is funny to watch a deer suffering  and laughing about it. No it doesn't prove or show all hunters do this, but it does make a point that supports my contention, anecdotal or not, (Which is usually describes a funny situation.) that the thrill of killing exists and is evidence for it. And you say: "But that doesn't make posting anecdotes and videos of specific people into an argument." Which is saying what?  :P   Solitary

[_Xenu_]

I enjoy canoing, but never bother to take a fishing rod with me. If I'm on a fishing trip with others, I prefer to catch and release. My cousin is an avid hunter, but he always gives his kill to the local homeless shelter. At least that way something good comes out of it.

[_Xenu_]

If they completely scavenged the animal and it isn't endangered, I don't really see the problem either.

It just leaves the personal distaste for people who revel in the fact that they've murdered something in a totally unfair fight, but that's just a personal dislike, nothing more.

I've always seen more honor in hunting something that can kill you as well. Elephants would qualify, so would wild hogs.

[Solitary]

If they completely scavenged the animal and it isn't endangered, I don't really see the problem either.

It just leaves the personal distaste for people who revel in the fact that they've murdered something in a totally unfair fight, but that's just a personal dislike, nothing more.

I've always seen more honor in hunting something that can kill you as well. Elephants would qualify, so would wild hogs.

My real dad told me when I was around 16 and hunting every day if I thought having a gun and able to kill made me feel like a man. He told me if I really want to feel like a man go out and kill them with my bare hands starting with a badger. I did, and never knew I could run so fast after I grabbed him and he made a sound from hell and I dropped him, as he kept chasing me. What a rush and thrill, better than I ever had from hunting with a rifle. Next thing my dad did was take me where they were skydiving in town and asked me if I thought I was brave enough to do it. I did, and have never since been as scared as the first time, and had such a hard time doing it the second time after have done it before than anything I've done before.

It is without a doubt an ultimate thrill. The only thing that has ever possessed me with every thinking thought Accept automobile racing and alpine skiing. If I could have at the time it is all I would have done being addicted to the rush and being totally relaxed after for months. I miss the life I had when young and able! Speaking of wild hogs. I had a friend take me bow hunting for wild hogs. I was in a path in high grass when I heard snorting and hoof beats coming toward me and all of a sudden this huge hog came right at me with his tusks gleaming. Just by instinct I jumped in the air as he ran under me. When my friend found me all wild eyed he couldn't stop laughing. I didn't think it was funny. They are scary and can really run fast. Solitary

[LikelyToBreak]

Solitary wrote in part:

So I made a informal fallacy. But it does show that these hunters think it is funny to watch a deer suffering and laughing about it.

May I suggest listening to the tape again.  Try noticing the hitch in their voices.  Also, notice how they are trying to sound manly to each other.  The laughter only proves emotion.  When I had appendicitis, I laughed all the way to the operating room.  The nurses thought I was nuts.  But, it isn't manly to cry, so I laughed.

I guess hunting to me isn't the thrill of the kill, it is the thrill of playing Daniel Boone.  Which is why it was always important to me to use as much of the animal as I could.  Admittedly, I did mess up on things while trying to learn though.  Still, I tried to do my best to use what I could and make the meat into a nice meal for my family.  I got more satisfaction from seeing my family enjoy the meal then I did in the actual hunt.  Yeah, I do get satisfaction from my family eating and enjoying the meals I make even when I didn't kill the animal.  But, I feel I am more in touch with how the world really is when I harvested the meat myself.  The same as a gardener feels when placing food which they grew on the table.

I enjoy history.  I like documentaries as well as books about history.  Although I know that the history in historical movies is stretched, I enjoy them as well.  Hunting always helped me feel in touch with my ancestors and others who came before me.

Yes, saying it is for the meat is a rationalization for hunting, but who wants to admit they just want to play Daniel Boone?  Just because some of them get a thrill out of killing, doesn't mean all hunters are bad.  Sending out rangers to do the killing will only increase the cost to the government and make the rangers who do it, numb to killing.  They do have some professional ranger hunters, but mostly for pest control because they can't get enough hunters to pay for the privilege of killing pests.  But, there are not many because the government can usually just ask hunters to help thin pest populations.  Remember when there were bounties on some animals?

Why don't you admit, you just don't like hunters?  You see Ted Nugent as the typical hunter and figure we are all raging assholes.  Or maybe you just want to take away the "excuse" to have firearms.  Either way, I think you are being narrow minded on the subject.  There is no one blanket statement about how everyone feels about anything.  Accept that people are different.  Some are raging assholes and some are just regular assholes.  It is the way it is.

[Solitary]

I won't admit it anymore than those that won't admit they like to kill that hunt. I was a hunter and would now if I could. All I said is hunters get a thrill and enjoy the kill. How does that show I hate hunters?  :roll:  Why has this whole subject that hunters enjoy killing keep getting derailed by rationalizations; and not one person has admitted they like to kill that go hunting? Again would any of you that could go hunting without the kill keep doing it? Why the hell does everyone here think I'm making a judgment call that liking to kill is wrong? I'm not, there are good reasons to kill and I've heard them all, but why the denial hunting is enjoyed by the kill as well as every other reason for it?

 I have never in my life from any avid hunter admit they like to kill when it is obvious to me that every single one I have known did without acception even though every single one denied it. Why is that so hard to admit to? And why the backlash at me because I do admit I did? There is a big difference from getting excited and a thrill from killing than enjoying the suffering of animals after that don't die instantly. I'm not saying all hunters enjoy that, only that there is a thrill in killing as well as other reasons to enjoy hunting.  :roll: Jesus H Christ, now I'm trying to get rid of guns when I have para ordinance 45 loaded with blue tip glazers by saying hunters get a thrill when they kill. What's next, I'm a terrorist that hates the US?  Nothing like getting off subject again and poisoning the well!  :Hangman:   #-o    Solitary

[LikelyToBreak]

Actually, I do sort of hunt without killing.  I call it birdwatching and taking pictures of birds, but it is very much like hunting.  I get up early and drive a long ways.  It helps to be quiet and still.  Target verification is essential and getting the right angle of attack is desired.  Knowing your equipment an using it for optimum efficiency is also necessary.  Though, it is probably not enough like hunting to satisfy some people that I still hunt without killing.

Since 1963, people have been attacking firearms and hunting.  We tend to have a knee-jerk reaction whenever someone brings those subjects up.  So, we answer the unspoken questions which we have heard so many times, that they just bounce in our heads.  Sorry, about that.

Still, I never actually got a thrill out of killing.  It was just something I did to get to where I wanted to go.  Though I don't doubt there are hunters who get a thrill from killing out there. I think there are many like me that do what we have to do to get what we want done, done.  There have been many shots I could have taken but found a reason not to.  Partly because I wanted to be safe, first and foremost, and also because I didn't like the actual kill part of hunting.  But, I was taught growing up a man sucks up his emotions and does what a man has to do, regardless if they like it or not.

[Solitary]

Actually, I do sort of hunt without killing.  I call it birdwatching and taking pictures of birds, but it is very much like hunting.  I get up early and drive a long ways.  It helps to be quiet and still.  Target verification is essential and getting the right angle of attack is desired.  Knowing your equipment an using it for optimum efficiency is also necessary.  Though, it is probably not enough like hunting to satisfy some people that I still hunt without killing.

Since 1963, people have been attacking firearms and hunting.  We tend to have a knee-jerk reaction whenever someone brings those subjects up.  So, we answer the unspoken questions which we have heard so many times, that they just bounce in our heads.  Sorry, about that.

Still, I never actually got a thrill out of killing.  It was just something I did to get to where I wanted to go.  Though I don't doubt there are hunters who get a thrill from killing out there. I think there are many like me that do what we have to do to get what we want done, done.  There have been many shots I could have taken but found a reason not to.  Partly because I wanted to be safe, first and foremost, and also because I didn't like the actual kill part of hunting.  But, I was taught growing up a man sucks up his emotions and does what a man has to do, regardless if they like it or not.

   Believe me I know what you mean. You mean just before you made the shot you weren't excited by an emotional rush? I didn't mean to imply that every hunter enjoys killing, just the thrill just before shooting and the act, even if after they don't like what they did after. This is the problem with words they mean so many different things to different people. I'm with you on hunting without the kill and taking pictures as a trophy, enjoying nature, the hunt itself, the eating of game you like oops! a hunter slip!    I honestly don't think most avid hunters would be satisfied hunting without a kill involved. It satisfies a primitive lust we have from too many male hormones when younger. Sorry ladies that like to hunt!  8-[ -------Am I safe now?  :rollin:  Solitary