Did the U.S. create the Taliban and Al Quaeda?

[Jmpty]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=58 ... =2&theater

Thoughts?

[LikelyToBreak]

Damn!  I get to agree with Hillary Clinton.   :rollin:

She just admitted to how our government is myopic and thinks in the short term.  From her lips to Obama's ears.   =D>  

Oh wait, she is completely supporting Obama attacking Assad now.   :oops:
//http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-09-09/politics/41895439_1_chemical-weapons-bill-clinton-assad

Maybe she ought to listen to herself.   :-k

Now I'm confused.  

[FrankDK]

Ronald Reagan is the father of al Qaeda.  The money and weapons he gave them built the initial organization from a handful of disorganized radicals into a paramilitary force.

Frank

[stromboli]

For your perusal
http://www.globalresearch.ca/9-11-analy ... 2001/20958

This article summarizes earlier writings by the author on 9/11 and the role of Al Qaeda in US foreign policy. For further details see Michel Chossudovsky, America's "War on Terrorism", Global Research, 2005  

"The United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings....The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books,..", (Washington Post, 23 March 2002)

"Advertisements, paid for from CIA funds, were placed in newspapers and newsletters around the world offering inducements and motivations to join the [Islamic] Jihad." (Pervez  Hoodbhoy, Peace Research, 1 May 2005)

"Bin Laden recruited 4,000 volunteers from his own country and developed close relations with the most radical mujahideen leaders. He also worked closely with the CIA, ... Since September 11, [2001] CIA officials have been claiming they had no direct link to bin Laden." (Phil Gasper, International Socialist Review, November-December 2001)

Highlights

-Osama bin Laden, America's bogyman, was recruited by the CIA in 1979 at the very outset of the US sponsored jihad. He was 22 years old and was trained in a CIA sponsored guerilla training camp.

-The architects of the covert operation in support of "Islamic fundamentalism" launched during the Reagan presidency played a key role in launching the "Global War on Terrorism" in the wake of 9/11.

- President Ronald Reagan met the leaders of the Islamic Jihad at the White House in 1985

-Under the Reagan adminstration, US foreign policy evolved towards the unconditional support and endorsement of the Islamic "freedom fighters". In today's World, the "freedom fighters" are labelled "Islamic terrorists".

-In the Pashtun language, the word "Taliban" means "Students", or graduates of the madrasahs (places of learning or coranic schools) set up by the Wahhabi missions from Saudi Arabia, with the support of the CIA.

-Education in Afghanistan in the years preceding the Soviet-Afghan war was largely secular. The US covert education destroyed secular education. The number of  CIA sponsored religious schools (madrasahs) increased from 2,500 in 1980 to over 39,000.

The Soviet-Afghan war was part of a CIA covert agenda initiated during the Carter administration, which consisted  in actively supporting and financing the Islamic brigades, later known as Al Qaeda.

The Pakistani military regime played from the outset in the late 1970s, a key role in the US sponsored military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan. In the post-Cold war era, this central role of Pakistan in US intelligence operations was extended to the broader Central Asia- Middle East region. From the outset of the Soviet Afghan war in 1979, Pakistan under military rule actively supported the Islamic brigades. In close liaison with the CIA, Pakistan's military intelligence, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), became a powerful organization, a parallel government, wielding tremendous power and influence.

America's covert war in Afghanistan, using Pakistan as a launch pad, was initiated during the Carter administration prior to the Soviet "invasion":

"According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention." (Former National Security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski, Interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, 15-21 January 1998)

In the published memoirs of Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who held the position of  deputy CIA Director at the height of the Soviet Afghan war, US intelligence was directly involved from the outset, prior to the Soviet invasion, in channeling aid to the Islamic brigades.

[josephpalazzo]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=585264551540808&set=vb.544385315596787&type=2&theater

Thoughts?

This is old news.

On a side note: What Hillary says about funding Al Qaeda that allegedly led to the demise of the Soviet Union is a myth perpetrated across the nation. It's a deceptive way for certain American politicians to self-congratulate themselves. The Soviet Union was collapsing on its own.

The other omission in that clip is why Al Qaeda turned its back on the US, which had everything to do with the first Iraqi war in 1991. Again US politicians don't want to go there simply because Iraqi war 1 was a huge mistake, committed by both parties.

[frosty]

Well, certain things like this are out in the open now. This is not a secret or a 'big thing' anymore. Virtually everybody will agree that the U.S. government has engaged numerous times in covert operations for their own geopolitical agenda. Arguably, when certain 'coalitions' form to attack a nation, it could be said that they are simply forming a gang to easier and more quickly defeat their enemies and accomplish whatever goal they had in mind.

The issue, I think, is when certain people take it a step further and claim, like I've heard before, that Satanic flesh eating old men are ordering companies to install cameras in your fridge to monitor everything you do. It is those people who claim such things that makes the public less informed. Those same people that make such wild claims are the same people often talking about covert programs by the U.S. government - and in turn, the general public will simply ignore everything they have to say because they think if they make one wild claim they are destined to make many more.

It's kind of ironic, actually, that some of the very same people who tell others to "wake up" and "get informed" are their own worst nightmare that make themselves look bad and turn curious people away.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

No.

First off, the Taliban and AQ are not the same entity. In fact, up until the bombing of the USS Cole and preliminary Tomahawk strikes into Afghanistan, the Taliban hated AQ as they percieved them as bringing too much international attention to their doorstep. They also adhered to completely different ideologies, in that AQ wanted an international Caliphate and the Taliban wanted simply to turn Afghaistan and parts of Pakistan into a Sharia paradise. We must also remember that the Taliban is formed predominantly of southern, Pakistani trained tribes that united to implement Sharia and then succeeded in spreading their political/religious zeal into the rest of the more powerful tribal areas (either through persuasion or force). This was a movement effectively independent of US involvement save for indirect residual assistance from the now long finished Soviet invasion conflict.

The Mujahadeen in the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan were certainly aided by CIA training and monies sent from the US, but as Joe points out above, the scorched earth policy enacted by the Soviets was always their end game. The Afghans put up immense resistance independent of US assistance, the USSR would never have been able to have gained control Afghanistan as it was quite clear it was collapsing thanks to its own internal issues, which were of course exacerbated by Afghanistan, but it wasn't the cause.

The radicalisation of Bin Laden et al undoubtedly started prior to the Soviet invasion, and was most certainly accelerated by the war. But the US was not responsible for the aftermath of tribalism and extremism. AQ lest we forget was actually a Yemeni/Saudi clandestine organisation that spread to Afghanistan as a 'base' as convenience (without the Taliban's acceptance). 'It' existed as a thought long before the US has even heard of it.

Whilst the Taliban and AQ have since, seemingly, fought at one anothers side either against international forces or against northern tribes that sought to oust the Taliban from their regions (and Kabul), it's still not clear even if the Taliban in its entirety want anything to do with AQ. Certainly, there have been instances in the past (reading from wiki as quick brief) that there has been strong disagreement over, for example, the trafficking of women in Pakistan and Afghanistan for sex slavery, as some reject it whilst others seem to employ it. Also seems clear that the biggest back firing has occured to the Pakistani's, as once they wanted to spread the Taliban's influence for control of Afghanistan, but now they see that very same force spreading back into their own country trying and bringing extremist elements who want to demolish the Pakistani state along with it.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

As an aside, the WIKI article on AQ kind of annoys me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

They cite the speech given by bin Laden about the origin of AQ, but actually fail to go in-depth about how AQ was born from an idea into an 'organisation'. And, as bin Laden himself says, AQ was never a clear, distinct organisation that operated like Spectre from James Bond in a big evil Afghanistan palace.

It was full of disparate cells or 'lone wolfs'. The myth surrounding AQ has actually probably inspired more attrocities conducted by people seeking to emulate the myth than AQ has conducted itself (by numbers, I mean). The London bombers of 7/7 for example are often cited as being AQ operative, but they weren't. They were inspired and emulate what they thought was the MO of AQ, and so doing helped reproduce the myth. They'd been to Pakistan, but they'd never formally joined an organisation.

It's the perfect example of a stand allone complex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy ... ne_Complex

[SGOS]

the USSR would never have been able to have gained control Afghanistan as it was quite clear it was collapsing thanks to its own internal issues, which were of course exacerbated by Afghanistan, but it wasn't the cause.

Yes, the USSR was headed on a course of collapse long before Afghanistan.  It's odd that such a backwards desert would become a focal point of both the USSR and the USA.  Afghanistan is a hole in the desert that super powers pour money into.

As for the rest of Hillary's speech, there isn't much there that most Americans don't already know.  We know this stuff, but pouring money into the enemy of our enemy has become a habitual response in our foreign policy.  It's habitual, because we do it over and over again almost reflexively.  We continually see the problems we cause in hindsight, but we are incapable of changing our habits.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

the USSR would never have been able to have gained control Afghanistan as it was quite clear it was collapsing thanks to its own internal issues, which were of course exacerbated by Afghanistan, but it wasn't the cause.

Yes, the USSR was headed on a course of collapse long before Afghanistan.  It's odd that such a backwards desert would become a focal point of both the USSR and the USA.  Afghanistan is a hole in the desert that super powers pour money into.

As for the rest of Hillary's speech, there isn't much there that most Americans don't already know.  We know this stuff, but pouring money into the enemy of our enemy has become a habitual response in our foreign policy.  It's habitual, because we do it over and over again almost reflexively.  We continually see the problems we cause in hindsight, but we are incapable of changing our habits.

It's a useful tactic if one can forsee (or guess at) the variables that wll affect the outcome. Unfortunately this is something that many countries (not just the US) have an issue with.

RE: Afghanistan. It's odd isn't it? The UK has attempted to invade 3 times (if you count the recent attempt with NATO) and failed everytime. You'd think we'd have learned by now, but it's not the war that causes the issue, rather the resistance of the people. I guess the USSR/USA thing was about expansion/containment respectively rather than "Afghanistan looks like a nice place for a Holiday". Ironically, once upon a time, it probably would have been.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Don't forget the zeal to involve 'god aka allah' into the fray as 'the right thing' as the Soviets were widely viewed as 'godless atheists' at least according to Ronnyboy. Anyone on gods side had to be on our side...right?

[Aupmanyav]

Taliban are a Pakistan creation to hijack Afghanistan (and Kashmir, they work under hundreds of names). Sure, they are not interested in a global muslim caliphate but in a Pakistani caliphate in Central Asia.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

I think the reason for these two groups (or any radical group, for that matter) getting as powerful as they did can be summed up in this quote by Alfred in "The Dark Knight:"

"You crossed the line first, sir. You squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of desperation. And in their desperation, they turned to a man they didn't fully understand."

[Brian37]

To answer the question in the title of the thread.

NO,

But they sure did help marketing by going into two unfunded wars with no plan and left a mess behind.

[baronvonrort]

Taliban are a Pakistan creation to hijack Afghanistan (and Kashmir, they work under hundreds of names). Sure, they are not interested in a global muslim caliphate but in a Pakistani caliphate in Central Asia.

The Pakistan ISI deserve the majority of the credit for creating the Taliban,the Islamic apologists prefer to blame the USA and ignore the contribution of the ISI.

The Taliban and all Islamic terror groups were created by muslims taking Islam too seriously.