Israel and its history of false flag attacks

[Insult to Rocks]

OK, I will not argue about that.  But there were a few posts (and I don't remember by whom) flat out denying any possibility of an israeli connection.  The fact is, we can not rule out that possibility.  And I see noting paranoid about the suggestion that at least a handful of israelis may have been involved.  What I mean is this.  As you yourself have stated, they had the motive and they had the means.  What is so paranoid about suggesting that where there is motive and there is means, we oughtta do a little digging before lettin them off the hook so easily.

What you're saying makes sense, except that it has been over ten years now. 9/11 is probably one of the most overanalyzed historical events out there. If there were evidence that Mossad or anyone from Israel doing it, we would have found out by now.

[AtheistMoFo]

What you're saying makes sense, except that it has been over ten years now. 9/11 is probably one of the most overanalyzed historical events out there. If there were evidence that Mossad or anyone from Israel doing it, we would have found out by now.

Found it by now?  Not necessarily.  Remember, it took 30 years for the truth to come out about the USS Liberty.  It was not a matter of "not finding" the evidence.  It was deliberately covered up.  And anyone with a drop of intelligence can figure out why.

Another comment I saw while perusing this topic but don't remember who wrote it, and not going back over all those posts to find out, somebody said "it was a long time ago.  Just forget it."  But if his/her relative had been killed or injured in that attack, I doubt he/she would have said that.  After all, they did not just "forget" about Osama bin Laden, did they.  There are no statutes of limitations on murder in the first degree.

[Insult to Rocks]

Found it by now?  Not necessarily.  Remember, it took 30 years for the truth to come out about the USS Liberty.  It was not a matter of "not finding" the evidence.  It was deliberately covered up.  And anyone with a drop of intelligence can figure out why.

Another comment I saw while perusing this topic but don't remember who wrote it, and not going back over all those posts to find out, somebody said "it was a long time ago.  Just forget it."  But if his/her relative had been killed or injured in that attack, I doubt he/she would have said that.  After all, they did not just "forget" about Osama bin Laden, did they.  There are no statutes of limitations on murder in the first degree.

Assuming they "covered it up" is speculation. I can't dismiss the possibility, but I work with facts, not speculation.
As for the second part, I don't think I can advise anyone to forget about it, but I can advise people to move on. It has been over ten years now, and as a nation, we need to let it go. The world is far too hostile and chaotic of a place for an entire nation to mourn for ten years.

[AtheistMoFo]

Assuming they "covered it up" is speculation. I can't dismiss the possibility, but I work with facts, not speculation.

Covered up the USS Liberty attack?  or 9/11?

Maybe the media just had more important things to cover for 30 years.  Like speculation on who knocked up who in Hollywood.  Or the latest French fashions.

If you were referring to 9/11, and you work with the facts rather than speculation, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with the facts first.

As for the second part, I don't think I can advise anyone to forget about it, but I can advise people to move on. It has been over ten years now, and as a nation, we need to let it go. The world is far too hostile and chaotic of a place for an entire nation to mourn for ten years.

Care to elaborate on how "moving on" differs from "forgetting about it"?

I don't personaly know anyone who has a relative murdered by the israelis in the USS Liberty attack, but I seriously doubt that they would want to "move on" and never hear of it again go.  And it is now nearly 50 years.  I could be wrong about that though.

[Insult to Rocks]

Moving on means accepting that it happened, how it happened, and focusing on bigger and more important things. Forgetting about it means pretending it never happened. That's why I get angry when people bring up these theories. There is a time and place, and the world as of now is not the place to be wasting our efforts wondering "what if Mossad did it?" There is also a time and place for questioning your government. Do you have any reason to believe that Al-Qaeda did not perform the attacks? More importantly, do you have any evidence?
Please, regardless of whether or not you agree with me, let us stop this bickering.

[zarus tathra]

We only say this because there is absolutely no evidence saying they did do it. I'm not saying they couldn't. Hell, a bunch of drunk air force guys can fly a plane into a building. But we object because there is no evidence that they did, regardless of means or motive, and because paranoid conspiracies like this never get us anywhere.

The "Info Underground" link talks about the owner, Larry Silverstein, eating breakfast at "Windows on the World" every day since buying the towers and then "deciding to go for a walk" on 9/11, along with his kids.

Then there's the fact that fewer than 10 Israelis out of thousands working in the Twin Towers died on 9/11, and that several Israeli users of an Israeli IM service that allows users to filter by nationality were given warnings hours before the planes arrived.

And so on and so forth. There's a lot of "circumstantial evidence" of foreknowledge.



A link about Odigo from Haaretz.

[jumper]

...

[AtheistMoFo]

And so on and so forth. There's a lot of "circumstantial evidence" of foreknowledge.

Circumstantial evidence of foreknowledge?  What circumstantial evidence?  There is no circumstantial evidence.

If you are referring to put options on American Airlines and United Airlines, that was nothing more than coincidence.  Coincidence can hardly be called "circumstantial evidence."  Or if the circumstantial evidence you refer to has anything to do with judge Alvin Hellerstein's son, I can't see how that has any bearing on the situation.

Gulliani's statement that "...we were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse" shortly before it did collapse is also frequently cited as evidence of foreknowledge because until September 11 (and since then as well), no high-rise had ever collapsed.  But duh, don't forget, two of the three high-rise buildings that collapsed that day were hit by airplanes.  That makes a big difference.  You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be able to predict the collpase.  Anyone with a brain could figure that out.  I was sitting there watching the twin towers burning on my TV and I said to myself, "those buildings are going to collapse."  And they bloody well did!

[zarus tathra]

Did you read the photo I posted, or the link to Haaretz I put up?

[Thumpalumpacus]

And so on and so forth. There's a lot of "circumstantial evidence" of foreknowledge.

Circumstantial evidence of foreknowledge?  What circumstantial evidence?  There is no circumstantial evidence.

If you are referring to put options on American Airlines and United Airlines, that was nothing more than coincidence.  Coincidence can hardly be called "circumstantial evidence."  Or if the circumstantial evidence you refer to has anything to do with judge Alvin Hellerstein's son, I can't see how that has any bearing on the situation.

Gulliani's statement that "...we were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse" shortly before it did collapse is also frequently cited as evidence of foreknowledge because until September 11 (and since then as well), no high-rise had ever collapsed.  But duh, don't forget, two of the three high-rise buildings that collapsed that day were hit by airplanes.  That makes a big difference.  You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be able to predict the collpase.  Anyone with a brain could figure that out.  I was sitting there watching the twin towers burning on my TV and I said to myself, "those buildings are going to collapse."  And they bloody well did!

Never underestimate the effect of hundreds of thousands of pounds of burning jet fuel on the structural strength of steel.

[Shiranu]

Did you read the photo I posted, or the link to Haaretz I put up?

If you think that is evidence of Israel being the instigators... wow...

[AtheistMoFo]

Did you read the photo I posted, or the link to Haaretz I put up?

If you think that is evidence of Israel being the instigators... wow...

I suspect Zarus may have just been suggesting that there is some kind of israeli connection that has never been investigated.  But only Zarus knows what Zarus really meant.

Here is the article in question.  (emphasis mine)
[spoil:3nzvzq9j]Odigo, the instant messaging service, says that two of its workers received messages two hours before the Twin Towers attack on September 11 predicting the attack would happen, and the company has been cooperating with Israeli and American law enforcement, including the FBI, in trying to find the original sender of the message predicting the attack.

Micha Macover, CEO of the company, said the two workers received the messages and immediately after the terror attack informed the company's management, which immediately contacted the Israeli security services, which brought in the FBI.

"I have no idea why the message was sent to these two workers, who don't know the sender. It may just have been someone who was joking and turned out they accidentally got it right. And I don't know if our information was useful in any of the arrests the FBI has made," said Macover. Odigo is a U.S.-based company whose headquarters are in New York, with offices in Herzliya.

As an instant messaging service, Odigo users are not limited to sending messages only to people on their "buddy" list, as is the case with ICQ, the other well-known Israeli instant messaging application.

Odigo usually zealously protects the privacy of its registered users, said Macover, but in this case the company took the initiative to provide the law enforcement services with the originating Internet Presence address of the message, so the FBI could track down the Internet Service Provider, and the actual sender of the original message.[/spoil:3nzvzq9j]So if you are an Odigo user, and you get a message from someone you don't know saying that SeaBasket is going win in the third race, grab your coat and walet and head for the track!

[Shiranu]

I suspect Zarus may have just been suggesting that there is some kind of israeli connection that has never been investigated. But only Zarus knows what Zarus really meant.

That's what I assumed he meant, and if he thinks that is evidence of a connection... then again, wow.

[AtheistMoFo]

That's what I assumed he meant, and if he thinks that is evidence of a connection... then again, wow.

If it could be confirmed the the two israelis did truly receive those text messages, it would be a strong indication of a connection.  But like the article says, it could have been someone just messin' around and by chance it turned out exactly as they predicted.  Hell of a long shot, but it could be.

On the other hand, if TWO israelis received that text message, how is anyone to know whether 10s or 100s or even 1000s of israelis received the message but never reported it?  There have been rumors about the relatively small numbers of israelis killed in the attack in proportion to the number of them working in the vicinity.  But I have never seen that the rumors were actually substantiated.

Anyway, worth looking into.  Especially when you consider the israel's history of pulling off false flag attacks.

False flag attacks have been around for as long as humans have made war on one another.  "All warfare is based on deception."  That quote is from 2500 years ago.  But in the sixty some years of its existence, israel has probably pulled off more false flag attacks than any other country.  They had motive, they had means, and they have a long history of deception including false flag attacks.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The risks to Israel's existence should their role become known would be far too extreme for them to make such an attack. They would lose between three and four billion dollars a year in American assistance, and more importantly, instantly become a pariah state.  Because of their geopolitical situation, becoming a pariah state would in all likelihood mean national extinction.  Even if that dire outcome didn't happen, the Arab states would reap such political fruits that Israel could never again credibly argue that it is the democratic sensible alternative in the Middle East.

No, the political calculus doesn't compute.