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Laws behind pregnancy.

Started by Alex Shouwls, September 01, 2013, 07:45:24 PM

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Johan

Quote from: "wolf39us"I think your 0.0001% might be tad... no probably way off.
So are you saying that you personally know or know of a large percentage of men who ended up having to pay child support after they had sex with someone while using birth control properly AND who had discussed their feelings about not wanting kids nor wanting to pay child support prior to having sex AND who had known the woman they were having sex with long enough and well enough to be able to reasonably trust her when she said she was on board with it? Because that is 0.0001% that I'm talking about.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

wolf39us

No, but as an engineering major (I like math)... Numbers like 0.0001% make me want to see the data!  

Throwing out a random percentage is not going to be convincing.  You must take into consideration all accidental pregnancies, and then fathers that want an abortion.  Some will be performed, others will not.  To say that of the fathers seeking abortions, only 0.0001% of them include women who refuse to allow the abortion AND seek child support is a little optimistic.

Even if that was the case, it should not be said that just because a rather small number of people are affected, that we should pay no mind!  There is clearly a double standard, one that probably has no real solution.

I see it this way though...  A girl gets pregnant and she has a right to an abortion.  She has a way to "opt-out" of responsibility because its her body and I support this right.  I also believe that if a woman goes against the will of the father, then she should do so by her own will and thus be fully responsible.  

These are my own opinions and I have thought about what I would do if I knocked a chick up... My conclusions were not including anything legal and all end in me in jail or dead so...  I got myself snipped and holy crap does that make me feel better! :-)

Aroura33

Quote from: "Johan"
Quote from: "Aroura33"The exact same thing can, and HAS and for that matter still IS being said about womens rights and abortion. Only instead of legalizing something as trivial as beaing a "deadbeat", they say we are legalizing murder. And surely, we are legalizing irresponsible behavior, because easy abortions just means woman will use it AS birth control, and start sleeping around more promiscuislt, right?

No, it is not legalizing irresponsible behavior, unless you agree it goes both ways, and that abortions are also legalizing irresponsible behaviotr, aka having sex and not accepting the consequences.
This is an excellent point. You're absolutely correct that legalizing abortion is also legalizing irresponsible behavior. but here's the difference. We tried making abortion illegal and abortions didn't stop. Instead women went underground to get them and as a result many were seriously injured or died. So in a nutshell if being a deadbeat dad significantly increased the risk that men would end up seriously injured or dead then I would say you have a valid argument. But to my knowledge being a deadbeat dad does no such thing, therefore I see no reason to legalize it.
Do you really only support abortion because women will get them no matter what, including at risk to their life?  Do you really think abortions are irresponsible behavior?  I don't.  I think in many cases, they are the extremely responsible thing to do.  

I support abortion because I think people have a right to "family panning", to decide if a child is the right thing for them.  If not, then they probably should not be having a kid, they will likely not be the best parent if they don't want the child!  And our system is already overflowing with unadoptable unwanted kids that "responsible" people gave up for adoption instead of aborting. Also, because birth control isn't 100%, and because not everyone is perfect and sometimes even good people get into the heat of the moment and do the deed sans birth control.  It's hormones, we are human, we make mistakes.

Ultimately, my argument is that men deserve the same (or as similar as we can make it) rights as women.  Not every man who wants nothing to do with a child he conceived is irresponsible. Just like some women decide to abort because they know they would be a crappy parent at that time in their life, men should be able to decide that for the same reason...which is RESPONSIBLE.  If you are not ready to be a dad, forcing someone to do it...well we see the results all the time.  Dads who often do more harm than good being in a child's life.  Parents who resent their kids.  And if all you are is a paycheck, it is pretty easy to build resentment.  They should be able to decide NOT to be that bad dad. Maybe more women would make the RESPONSILE choice not to have 5 babies by 4 different men (and yes, I mean abort them or give them up) if they knew that money from the sperm donor wasn't going to be basically automatic.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.  LLAP"
Leonard Nimoy

Plu

Quote from: "Johan"
Quote from: "wolf39us"I think your 0.0001% might be tad... no probably way off.
So are you saying that you personally know or know of a large percentage of men who ended up having to pay child support after they had sex with someone while using birth control properly AND who had discussed their feelings about not wanting kids nor wanting to pay child support prior to having sex AND who had known the woman they were having sex with long enough and well enough to be able to reasonably trust her when she said she was on board with it? Because that is 0.0001% that I'm talking about.

What about the men (and women) who don't share your views on sex? Just because you think it's irresponsible to have random safe sex with people doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees, but you are basically opposing laws to protect them based on your personal opinion of sexuality.

I don't discuss beforehand what must be done in case of an accidental death before I drive a friend to the supermarket anymore than I feel a need to discuss what to do in the case of an accidental pregnancy. The odds of either happening are far low enough to be willing to ignore that section until it becomes relevant. Otherwise, life becomes unbearable. Nobody does that. Except you feel it should be done on the topic of sex, which is probably a cultural thing.

There is no reason to let the extremely low chance of accidental pregnancy prevent you from doing what feels good (and is totally responsible) anymore than there is a reason to discuss with the parents of a friend's child how you will handle the death of their child before you cross the road with them.

surly74

Quote from: "Johan"So are you saying that you personally know or know of a large percentage of men who ended up having to pay child support after they had sex with someone while using birth control properly AND who had discussed their feelings about not wanting kids nor wanting to pay child support prior to having sex AND who had known the woman they were having sex with long enough and well enough to be able to reasonably trust her when she said she was on board with it? Because that is 0.0001% that I'm talking about.

here is a guy who donated his sperm to a couple and the state got in the middle. he didn't even get to have sex with either woman.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12 ... pport?lite

Granted it's only one and not 100's so I guess this poor chap doesn't matter to you. When ever I see something like this I think what it must be like if I was going through it. Gives me warm fuzzies that people just brush it off because there are so few.

women have rights, men have responsibilities.
God bless those Pagans
--
Homer Simpson

Jason78

Quote from: "surly74"men have responsibilities.

Isn't that what being a man is all about?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Plu

I was under the impression we were trying to make the sexes equal? Sentences like the above seem to suggest the opposite.

surly74

Quote from: "Jason78"
Quote from: "surly74"men have responsibilities.

Isn't that what being a man is all about?

apparently on this board it is.
God bless those Pagans
--
Homer Simpson

Jmpty

So, what happens when a woman gets pregnant and the man wants the child, but the woman doesn't?
???  ??

wolf39us


Mermaid

Quote from: "Jmpty"So, what happens when a woman gets pregnant and the man wants the child, but the woman doesn't?
If he doesn't have the uterus, it's not his call.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Plu

Until we find a way to easily to transfer the child to the guy so he can carry it, yeah that's just tough luck.

Jason Harvestdancer

Quote from: "surly74"does the man in WV have a leg to stand on for suing the biological father based on what the law says?

he's paid and is paying CS for the kid but refuses to play alimony to his ex wife. for that I agree with him.

Precedents have to start somewhere.  It's not his bio kid but he's paying the support, he should be able to get the bio dad to pay him what he's paying his ex.

I've also heard of alienation of affection lawsuits, that might also apply to cover the alimony.
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

Jmpty

Quote from: "Mermaid"
Quote from: "Jmpty"So, what happens when a woman gets pregnant and the man wants the child, but the woman doesn't?
If he doesn't have the uterus, it's not his call.

If he is held responsible at an equal level to the mother for the child, shouldn't he have equal say?
???  ??

Plu

Yeah, that's why we're opposed to the guy having an equal level of responsibility to the mother. ;)