Author Topic: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars  (Read 3002 times)

Offline stromboli

Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« on: August 30, 2013, 09:33:55 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Quote
He said the evidence was building that humans are in fact all martians and that "life started on Mars and came to Earth on a rock".
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2013, 01:48:56 AM »
This strikes me as yet more grasping at straws to try to find a way for life to have begun in a circumstance shackled by naturalism/materialism.  Given the difficulty of bringing useful proteins into existence naturalistically, assuming amino acids are readily present for such a circumstance to plausibly begin in the first place, the addition of molybdenum doesn't seem to actually move anything forward.  It always make me laugh though when I get a chance to observe the naturalist/materialist community closing their eyes, crossing their fingers, and chanting..."I think it can, I think it can, I think it can...!"

I'm all for continuing the research, but they are going to end up at the same dead end of being unable to produce an appropriate number of "useful proteins" and the ultimate production of information-bearing structures like DNA.
- C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry? -

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2013, 09:05:41 AM »
You'd make a fantastic scientist.

"Goddidit! That's a wrap people, everyone go home!"
"And, tricked by our own early dream
And need of solace, we grew self-deceived,
Our making soon our maker did we deem,
And what we had imagined we believed."
- Thomas Hardy

Offline aitm

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2013, 02:45:29 PM »
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
This strikes me as yet more grasping at straws

or...........as science has a habit of doing, presenting hypothesis for discussion and review. Unlike religion, which, if one uses there facts as facts we have a plethora of gods and fascinating stories of creation from the sun and moon mating to a giant crocodile fucking the moon, definitely religion presents the more factual possibilities.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Solitary

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2013, 02:54:33 PM »
[quoteThis strikes me as yet more grasping at straws to try to find a way for life to have begun in a circumstance shackled by naturalism/materialism. ][/quote]


If you don't believe in materialism try not eating or drinking material objects for a month so you can become a spiritual being instead of one shackled in a material body. Want to be born again, then die.  :roll: Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Offline stromboli

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2013, 03:15:42 PM »
Quote from: "aitm"
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
This strikes me as yet more grasping at straws

or...........as science has a habit of doing, presenting hypothesis for discussion and review. Unlike religion, which, if one uses there facts as facts we have a plethora of gods and fascinating stories of creation from the sun and moon mating to a giant crocodile fucking the moon, definitely religion presents the more factual possibilities.

Would love to see a believer come on here that actually understands the scientific method and what these claims represent. You can claim a miraculous beginning but there is no discussion stemming from that, just belief based on a supposition. If you can believe that life began because a deity snapped it/their finger and made it happen, but poo poo ongoing research to actually determine a provable answer, don't expect a lot of sympathy here.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline Colanth

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2013, 07:51:11 PM »
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
This strikes me as yet more grasping at straws to try to find a way for life to have begun in a circumstance shackled by naturalism/materialism.
There's objective evidence that material objectively exists.  Gods?  None yet.  At all.  Ever.

Quote
Given the difficulty of bringing useful proteins into existence naturalistically
Difficulty, not impossibility.  Given billions of chemical reactions per second, and 500 million years, the only rational question is, "why did it take so long?"

Quote
assuming amino acids are readily present
They weren't at first.  There wasn't any DNA at first either.

But please, post all the actual evidence you have of any god ever existing.  We'll buy more database space for the forum if necessary.  (But be warned, the smallest amount of space you can use is one byte [I'm not writing bit-manipulation software for the forum], and I don't think you'll ever find even that much evidence, so although there's no practical upper limit to the amount of evidence you can post, there's an actual lower limit.)
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2013, 12:54:59 AM »
Quote from: "aitm"
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
This strikes me as yet more grasping at straws

or...........as science has a habit of doing, presenting hypothesis for discussion and review. Unlike religion, which, if one uses there facts as facts we have a plethora of gods and fascinating stories of creation from the sun and moon mating to a giant crocodile fucking the moon, definitely religion presents the more factual possibilities.
Maybe, but this is not a new theory.  It's just a new novel location for the overall theory.  And they already know about the fantastically long odds even given the entire age of the universe against creating sufficient useful proteins, to say nothing of the rest of the processes and information bearing structures that we find in cells.  So the chanting continues...
- C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry? -

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2013, 12:56:47 AM »
Quote from: "Solitary"
If you don't believe in materialism try not eating or drinking material objects for a month so you can become a spiritual being instead of one shackled in a material body. Want to be born again, then die.  :roll: Solitary
Do you understand what I mean by materialism?  It certainly has nothing to do with a disbelief in drinking or eating.  After all, I didn't say that I don't believe that a material world exists.
- C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry? -

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2013, 01:06:15 AM »
Quote from: "Colanth"
There's objective evidence that material objectively exists.  Gods?  None yet.  At all.  Ever.
None that you're familiar with or that you accept, which is quite different than "None yet. At all. Ever."


Quote from: "Colanth"
Difficulty, not impossibility.
You are correct.  It's obviously not impossible, as we are here.  But doing so through a purely undirected purposeless material process likely moves that task outside the bounds of "difficult" and into the realm of the "impossible".  However, I'm sure willing to let them try for the next several million years or for however long the Earth goes on to exist.  


Quote from: "Colanth"
Given billions of chemical reactions per second, and 500 million years, the only rational question is, "why did it take so long?"
Because of the probabilities involved in the very first step, not counting the nearly countless steps to get you the rest of the way to an actual lifeform with information bearing structures and processes for continued existance through time.


Quote from: "Colanth"
They weren't at first. There wasn't any DNA at first either.
I know...making the idea itself that much more implausible.  I have no doubt that we'll be able to re-create some kind of novel never before extant life in the lab, but I know it will never be done by way of a purely naturalistic process.


Quote from: "Colanth"
But please, post all the actual evidence you have of any god ever existing.  We'll buy more database space for the forum if necessary.  (But be warned, the smallest amount of space you can use is one byte [I'm not writing bit-manipulation software for the forum], and I don't think you'll ever find even that much evidence, so although there's no practical upper limit to the amount of evidence you can post, there's an actual lower limit.)
There's quite a 'bit' of information to consider actually, and if I thought I was dealing with someone who was genuinely interested, I might actually post information.  I'm sure it'll come up over time with someone though.  Just out of curiosity though, where do you think information originated?  I'm not making any argument, but I am interested in your point of view.
- C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry? -

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

  • ULC Minister, Honorary Doctor of Divinity
  • Jacuzzi Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5542
  • Total likes: 2245
  • That's DOCTOR Hijiri, to you!
    • Sargon Lore
Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2013, 01:18:36 AM »
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
And they already know about the fantastically long odds
of 1. It happened, therefore the odds of it happening are 1. Where the necessary conditions took place is irrelevant to the fact that they did take place for the purposes of your argument.

I don't really know why some folks here bother wasting paragraphs on you when your own ignorance speaks for itself.
"Existence is beautiful, if you let it be. Life is not a question. There does not need to be an answer."
- No Man's Sky

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2013, 01:31:47 AM »
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
And they already know about the fantastically long odds
of 1. It happened, therefore the odds of it happening are 1. Where the necessary conditions took place is irrelevant to the fact that they did take place for the purposes of your argument.

I don't really know why some folks here bother wasting paragraphs on you when your own ignorance speaks for itself.
Okay, so the odds are 1 in what?  And are you speaking of our existance or all of the individual steps it would have taken to get here?

And the idea that we 'know' abiogenesis took place in an undirected purposeless process is simply false.  We don't know that.  That's the assumption on which most work, but it's not a known fact.  I have no doubt that I'm as ignorant as anyone else here, since none of us know everything, but what specific ignorance are you speaking of?
- C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry? -

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

  • ULC Minister, Honorary Doctor of Divinity
  • Jacuzzi Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5542
  • Total likes: 2245
  • That's DOCTOR Hijiri, to you!
    • Sargon Lore
Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2013, 01:44:37 AM »
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
Quote from: "Hijiri Byakuren"
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
And they already know about the fantastically long odds
of 1. It happened, therefore the odds of it happening are 1. Where the necessary conditions took place is irrelevant to the fact that they did take place for the purposes of your argument.

I don't really know why some folks here bother wasting paragraphs on you when your own ignorance speaks for itself.
Okay, so the odds are 1 in what?

And the idea that we 'know' abiogenesis took place in an undirected purposeless process is simply false.
[youtube:1xrl83a8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-yHDBHxAfI[/youtube:1xrl83a8]

Scientific progress does not have a habit of being made on half-cocked assertions. If it did, one or more religions would have been proven years ago. Perhaps if you did a little reading on the subject, you would understand why an "undirected purposeless process" (your words, not science's) is more convincing than anything religion will ever come up with. I dug up a few articles to get you started. Feel free to read up on their source material as well.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Oh, and don't try to tell me you've heard all of this before; I've read all of these at least once, and I'll be able to tell immediately how full of shit you are. Happy reading. :-D
"Existence is beautiful, if you let it be. Life is not a question. There does not need to be an answer."
- No Man's Sky

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline Plu

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2013, 02:30:39 AM »
Quote
Because of the probabilities involved in the very first step, not counting the nearly countless steps to get you the rest of the way to an actual lifeform with information bearing structures and processes for continued existance through time.

How big do you think the universe is?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Offline Colanth

Re: Life on Earth May Have Begun on Mars
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2013, 03:17:02 PM »
Quote from: "gomtuu77"
they already know about the fantastically long odds even given the entire age of the universe
That would be kind of true if there had been, say, one chemical reaction per day.  But, since there were probably trillions of trillions of reactions per second, the odds come WAY down.  MANY orders of magnitude down.  It's a combination of time and reactions per unit of time.  The more reactions in a given amount of time, the less time is needed.  And with the entire planet full of reacting ocean, the time needed should have been a lot less than half a billion years.

Quote
against creating sufficient useful proteins
ANY proteins would have been "useful".  Abiogenesis had no goal.  As Gould said, rewind it and everything would turn out different.

Quote
to say nothing of the rest of the processes and information bearing structures that we find in cells.
Actually, we know how simple it would have been for RNA to have formed from earlier life, and it wouldn't have taken that long.  (Minutes, actually.)

See, that's another gap your god no longer lives in.  When we know how something can occur, "it couldn't happen" becomes just silly words.  (No, we'll never know how it DID occur, but if there's at least one simple way it COULD occur, saying that it can't becomes childish.)  And we're learning more about abiogenesis all the time.  Four years ago, we had a rough idea how a single ribonucleotide may have come to be.  Now we know how life could have come to be.  Give it a few more years and we'll have a completely artificial life form, made of completely non-living material.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

 

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk