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Children's Suffrage

Started by Xerographica, August 21, 2013, 12:51:56 AM

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Xerographica

People of any age should be allowed to vote. There should only be one restriction...

1. you can't be accompanied in the voting both

The biggest argument against children voting is that they lack the information necessary to make an informed decision. When I was a little kid my mom made me go to church. I also had to frequently read the bible and pray. If kids had been allowed to vote back then...then she probably would have dragged me to the voting booth and tried to make me vote like her as well...fiscally liberal and socially conservative. Make some noise if you're fiscally liberal and socially conservative. I'm not...I'm the opposite...and I've been an atheist since the age of 11.

So if you want to argue that kids wouldn't have enough information...then you're arguing that parents don't have enough information. Therefore, you're arguing that parents should not be allowed to vote.

If you want to argue that kids don't understand the issues...then you're arguing that parents don't understand the issues. Therefore, you're arguing that parents should not be allowed to vote.

Kids shouldn't be allowed to vote because they don't pay taxes? Therefore adults that don't pay taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Kids shouldn't be allowed to vote because they don't have enough life experience? Therefore, those of you who have never lived in a developing country should not be allowed to vote. Same thing with those of you who haven't experienced war first hand.

Therefore, either everybody votes or nobody votes. If there's value in allowing some people to vote...then we maximize value by allowing everybody to vote.

Another argument is that people with kids would have more influence than people without kids. So what? Then you're arguing that the 1% shouldn't be allowed to vote because they have more money (influence) than the 99%.

Voting is a numbers game. Kids, being in the minority, even in the unlikely situation that they all agreed on the same issue...would never have the numbers to win against adults. Not only would kids not have the numbers...but they wouldn't even have the dollars. So they would get trounced in any kid vs adult issue.

Clearly though, just because people vote for the "wrong" thing isn't any evidence that they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Otherwise women shouldn't be allowed to vote...given that they voted for prohibition.

The fact that so many of you believe that kids shouldn't be allowed to vote...is proof positive that kids should be allowed to vote.

Shiranu

I'm sorry, but saying, "Parent's should be given an extra vote" isn't a compelling argument to me.

QuoteThen you're arguing that the 1% shouldn't be allowed to vote because they have more money (influence) than the 99%.

That's a terrible comparison, but if we want to use it then it would be like saying, "Just because the 1% has more money/influence, they still shouldn't have their vote counted twice.".

Sorry, kid's shouldn't be able to vote. Maybe reduce the age to 16, but that's about it.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Solitary

He! He! Is this some kind of new logic like new math was?   :popcorn:  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Hydra009

Quote from: "Xerographica"Therefore, either everybody votes or nobody votes. If there's value in allowing some people to vote...then we maximize value by allowing everybody to vote.
I may be a little [s:2evqzjlg]tipsy[/s:2evqzjlg] drunk right now, but I'm pretty sure that's not great logic...

Poison Tree

Quote from: "Xerographica"If there's value in allowing some people to vote...then we maximize value by allowing everybody to vote.
Including non-citizens?


Quote from: "Xerographica"The fact that so many of you believe that kids shouldn't be allowed to vote...is proof positive that kids should be allowed to vote.
Interesting as it may be that you'd assume that so many of us believe that kids shouldn't be allowed to vote, I don't see how that is proof in the slightest that they should be allowed to. I've actually seen some decent reasons why they should, none of which you've given here. Simply addressing objections which you project onto your audience is more akin to straw-manning than a convincing argument.
"Observe that noses were made to wear spectacles; and so we have spectacles. Legs were visibly instituted to be breeched, and we have breeches" Voltaire�s Candide

Plu

This is pretty weak as far as logic goes, even from you.

But I guess by this logic, if you are allowed to decide where your money goes, everyone should be allowed to decide where your money goes, because that's maximizing value. I guess our current tax system is the better option, using your own logic  :roll:

Xerographica

Quote from: "Poison Tree"
Quote from: "Xerographica"If there's value in allowing some people to vote...then we maximize value by allowing everybody to vote.
Including non-citizens?
Sure, and people should be able to sell their votes and choose where their taxes go.  They should even be able to give their taxes to foreign governments.  

Quote from: "Poison Tree"Interesting as it may be that you'd assume that so many of us believe that kids shouldn't be allowed to vote, I don't see how that is proof in the slightest that they should be allowed to. I've actually seen some decent reasons why they should, none of which you've given here. Simply addressing objections which you project onto your audience is more akin to straw-manning than a convincing argument.
Churchill said that the best argument against democracy was a 5 minute conversation with the average voter.  Except, the average voter doesn't believe that Churchill was referring to them.  So it makes me laugh when the average voter says that the average child is too uninformed to vote.   The jokes on them but they're too uninformed to get it.  Therefore, the reason you don't see how it's proof is because you're the average voter.  If you made the effort, like I have, to actually learn about the topic, then you would see the logic of the argument.

Shiranu

"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Atheon

Little kids would vote the way their parents tell them to vote. They haven't developed the intellectual skills needed to vote. At 10 years old I was a smart kid, but thinking back to that time there's no way I would trust my naive 10-year-old self to make a good decision voting.

My peers and I were plenty mature and politically savvy enough to vote when we were 16. I do think the voting age could be lowered to 16, but no lower.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Plu

Instead of saying "people are dumb, so we might as well let everyone and their dog vote", we could also say "people are dumb, so lets make sure people have a minimum level of knowledge about what they're actually doing before we count their vote".

Xerographica

Quote from: "Plu"Instead of saying "people are dumb, so we might as well let everyone and their dog vote", we could also say "people are dumb, so lets make sure people have a minimum level of knowledge about what they're actually doing before we count their vote".
The more people that vote...the less each vote counts.  Right now your vote doesn't count for much at all...

QuoteWhen you vote, the chance that you tip the outcome is near 0%, so you might as well just scream about your identity.  When you move, in contrast, the chance that you tip the outcome is near 100%, so you'd better consider cost and convenience. - Bryan Caplan, Expressive Voting, Emigration, and Alsace-Lorraine
So might as well let everybody and their dog vote because there's not much difference between near 0% and nearer 0%.

But if you really want informed people's votes to count...then why aren't you a big fan of pragmatarianism?  It's a fact that there's a strong correlation between education and income.  So the more informed you are...the more money you'll make...and the more influence you'd have.  Hence there wouldn't be any problem with allowing kids to have nearer 0% influence.

Plu

QuoteSo might as well let everybody and their dog vote because there's not much difference between near 0% and nearer 0%.

I'll qualify this for "dumbest post of the week", at least until your next one.

QuoteIt's a fact that there's a strong correlation between education and income.

There's no correlation between having an education and being informed, though. The correlation between education and income is also not lineair.  Which means that by changing it from "being informed makes your vote count" to "being rich makes your vote count" is basically like changing "a light touch on the bum" to "full on anal rape with a barbed wire dildo".

surly74

Quote from: "Xerographica"People of any age should be allowed to vote. There should only be one restriction...

1. you can't be accompanied in the voting both

The biggest argument against children voting is that they lack the information necessary to make an informed decision. When I was a little kid my mom made me go to church. I also had to frequently read the bible and pray. If kids had been allowed to vote back then...then she probably would have dragged me to the voting booth and tried to make me vote like her as well...fiscally liberal and socially conservative. Make some noise if you're fiscally liberal and socially conservative. I'm not...I'm the opposite...and I've been an atheist since the age of 11.

So if you want to argue that kids wouldn't have enough information...then you're arguing that parents don't have enough information. Therefore, you're arguing that parents should not be allowed to vote.

If you want to argue that kids don't understand the issues...then you're arguing that parents don't understand the issues. Therefore, you're arguing that parents should not be allowed to vote.

Kids shouldn't be allowed to vote because they don't pay taxes? Therefore adults that don't pay taxes shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Kids shouldn't be allowed to vote because they don't have enough life experience? Therefore, those of you who have never lived in a developing country should not be allowed to vote. Same thing with those of you who haven't experienced war first hand.

Therefore, either everybody votes or nobody votes. If there's value in allowing some people to vote...then we maximize value by allowing everybody to vote.

Another argument is that people with kids would have more influence than people without kids. So what? Then you're arguing that the 1% shouldn't be allowed to vote because they have more money (influence) than the 99%.

Voting is a numbers game. Kids, being in the minority, even in the unlikely situation that they all agreed on the same issue...would never have the numbers to win against adults. Not only would kids not have the numbers...but they wouldn't even have the dollars. So they would get trounced in any kid vs adult issue.

Clearly though, just because people vote for the "wrong" thing isn't any evidence that they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Otherwise women shouldn't be allowed to vote...given that they voted for prohibition.

The fact that so many of you believe that kids shouldn't be allowed to vote...is proof positive that kids should be allowed to vote.

yeah i'll give my nine your old a vote...he'll vote for the first guy that dresses up like batman. not sure who my two year old will vote for seeing he can't read yet...probably Thomas the Tank Engine...and my four month old? Obviously Justin Trudeau.

what is your point? aren't there other forums out there for this [hrline]raving idiocy [/hrline]sort of thing? You've gone from interesting read to batshit crazy. As I've heard it put before, you are a member of a club, this club has dues. don't like where the dues go? either run yourself or leave the club.

People like you really annoy me and here's why. it's not your ideas, i have ideas, its that you come on this board and talk like you have a superior system but you do nothing about it. posting your ideas for reform on an internet messsage board and hoping for change is just like praying...it's something to do but in the end useless. What are you prepared to do about affecting change? What are you prepared to do to get kids the vote? Bring your ideas up to someone in office and see how long it takes for them to look at you like you need a helmet?

you think because at 11 you thought you knew something or had the capability to comprehend something...well i got news for you. at 11 i thought i knew everything too, now where I am in life i realized at 11 i knew shit. kids don't have a vote because they don't understand what it is, at 16 or 18 they have more understanding but not in all cases. at 11? don't delude yourself into thinking you knew more that you did...you probably knew less.

QuoteIf you want to argue that kids don't understand the issues...then you're arguing that parents don't understand the issues. Therefore, you're arguing that parents should not be allowed to vote.

uh no, two different things completely and your conclusion doesn't make sense. my child not knowing the issues doesn't mean i'm uninformed....even if it does, i'm over 18 and he isn't.

QuoteTherefore, either everybody votes or nobody votes. If there's value in allowing some people to vote...then we maximize value by allowing everybody to vote.

in canada every citizen over the age of 18 can vote. can't get much more inclusionary than that. that's maximizing the value.

QuoteAnother argument is that people with kids would have more influence than people without kids. So what? Then you're arguing that the 1% shouldn't be allowed to vote because they have more money (influence) than the 99%.

in two sentences you changed the definition of influence. first you defined kids as influence then you defined it as money. which is it? do you drive to work or bring your lunch?

QuoteVoting is a numbers game. Kids, being in the minority, even in the unlikely situation that they all agreed on the same issue...would never have the numbers to win against adults. Not only would kids not have the numbers...but they wouldn't even have the dollars. So they would get trounced in any kid vs adult issue.

and what would the issues be? recess not long enough? You sound like one of the shows my son watches were 8 year olds are reporters for a magazine for kids and have children in other obviously unrealistic roles for kids.

QuoteThe fact that so many of you believe that kids shouldn't be allowed to vote...is proof positive that kids should be allowed to vote.

the fact you actually posted and tried to argue kids should be allowed to vote is proof positive you don't know what you are talking about and anything to this point shouldn't be taken seriously.
God bless those Pagans
--
Homer Simpson

Hydra009

Quote from: "Hydra009"
Quote from: "Xerographica"Therefore, either everybody votes or nobody votes. If there's value in allowing some people to vote...then we maximize value by allowing everybody to vote.
I may be a little [s:29n12hrf]tipsy[/s:29n12hrf] drunk right now, but I'm pretty sure that's not great logic...
A little hungover, but let's see if this works:

"If there's value in allowing some people smoke tobacco, then we maximize value by allowing everybody to smoke tobacco."

"If there's value in allowing some people to drink alcohol, then we maximize value by allowing everybody to drink alcohol."

""If there's value in allowing some people smoke own guns, then we maximize value by allowing everybody to own guns."

Does that sound like good logic to you?   :-k

surly74

logic if fine but the is a difference in logic and common sense.
God bless those Pagans
--
Homer Simpson