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Started by Bobbotov, September 03, 2013, 11:11:37 AM

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Bobbotov

Just discovered this forum and thought I would join. I am 66 and have been an atheist since I was 12. My family were Methodists and they tried their best to make me a good Methodist as well. My father was a choir director and my mother was a Sunday school teacher. But, unfortunately for them the plan backfired and instead they raised a free thinker.

I actually liked aspects of the church I went to. Here is a picture of it:



Since I was an artist I was very attracted to the stained glass windows and spent the agonizing hours in church services staring at them until I got into some kind of trance state and could tune out the droning Minister's religious-babble. The church had a beautiful Aelion-Wurlitzer pipe organ that was just magnificent. Since my Dad was choir director I learned a great deal about religious music a la Bach, Mozart, Hayden, St. Saens, etc. I am also a musician and the genius and beauty of the music was something I recognized albeit without any religious association. It was beautiful in its own right. As were the stained glass windows which had been designed in Germany at great expense to the church. And they were real stained glass not the ersatz types seen today of just painted glass. I still love stained glass regardless of subject and the illumination quality later affected the way I painted my own art.


I was actually confirmed as a  Methodist and did study the Bible first as a requirement for confirmation and then as an intellectual pursuit. That was the undoing for me. Once I finally got a grasp of what was in the Bible I realized that to believe what it portrayed was untenable for me. Now I freely admit  being a cherry-picker and there were parts of the Bible that had compelling aspects to me but I think that was mainly due to the fact that they dealt with the human condition. At no point did I ascribe the "good parts" to God but to the human's that wrote them and who had some understanding about life in general. And to that extent I think the Bible at least is a compendium of philosophy acquired from many disparate sources spanning many centuries.


I joke that I am a lapsed existential but maybe that is not so far from the truth. The disappointment with Christianity lead me to look into other spiritual manifestations and I was very enamored with Zen for a long time and gained a lot of insight from that. As I have from many other forms of philosophy. But first and foremost for me was the necessity to draw my own conclusion and not have any "system" dictated to me. Once again cherry picking.
The thing that has struck me most about Christians in general is how lazy they are in pursuing self-discovery. They just accept without question. This is very dangerous and allows for all manner of abuses. I have come to the conclusion early on that I was not going to live my life based on instructions or orders from someone or something else. I test the validity of all claims. Needless to say the claims of Christianity and all other religions have failed my scrutiny. I am quite iconoclastic in that regard.

I have found in my life that there are numerous examples of erroneous "beliefs" that humans hold not just with God and religion. And to that extent they are all very similar in requiring faith. Faith is probably one of the worst aspects of human nature as it rests on a baseless foundation. Yes, we can all hope for things but faith pushes it to some metaphysical state that is completely illusory. I think that is an egregious error in living.

In any case I have no idea how much I will contribute here but it is nice to see and hear from like minded individuals.
___________________________________________________
It is easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled. [/color]
M. Twain

GrinningYMIR

Welcome! Hope you enjoy it here, you'll find that most of us are good people, an occasional flame war might break out but that's usual for a forum.

We also eat cats, because cats are dirty little rascals
"Human history is a litany of blood shed over differing ideals of rulership and afterlife"<br /><br />Governor of the 32nd Province of the New Lunar Republic. Luna Nobis Custodit

Bobbotov

Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"We also eat cats, because cats are dirty little rascals

Well, as a person who owns five cats and have had many more in the past forty years I suspect I might have an issue with that aspect:-) I am not a strict vegetarian but do abstain from eating meat as a rule.
___________________________________________________
It is easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled. [/color]
M. Twain

mykcob4

Quote from: "Bobbotov"Just discovered this forum and thought I would join. I am 66 and have been an atheist since I was 12. My family were Methodists and they tried their best to make me a good Methodist as well. My father was a choir director and my mother was a Sunday school teacher. But, unfortunately for them the plan backfired and instead they raised a free thinker.

I actually liked aspects of the church I went to. Here is a picture of it:

[ Image ]

Since I was an artist I was very attracted to the stained glass windows and spent the agonizing hours in church services staring at them until I got into some kind of trance state and could tune out the droning Minister's religious-babble. The church had a beautiful Aelion-Wurlitzer pipe organ that was just magnificent. Since my Dad was choir director I learned a great deal about religious music a la Bach, Mozart, Hayden, St. Saens, etc. I am also a musician and the genius and beauty of the music was something I recognized albeit without any religious association. It was beautiful in its own right. As were the stained glass windows which had been designed in Germany at great expense to the church. And they were real stained glass not the ersatz types seen today of just painted glass. I still love stained glass regardless of subject and the illumination quality later affected the way I painted my own art.


I was actually confirmed as a  Methodist and did study the Bible first as a requirement for confirmation and then as an intellectual pursuit. That was the undoing for me. Once I finally got a grasp of what was in the Bible I realized that to believe what it portrayed was untenable for me. Now I freely admit  being a cherry-picker and there were parts of the Bible that had compelling aspects to me but I think that was mainly due to the fact that they dealt with the human condition. At no point did I ascribe the "good parts" to God but to the human's that wrote them and who had some understanding about life in general. And to that extent I think the Bible at least is a compendium of philosophy acquired from many disparate sources spanning many centuries.


I joke that I am a lapsed existential but maybe that is not so far from the truth. The disappointment with Christianity lead me to look into other spiritual manifestations and I was very enamored with Zen for a long time and gained a lot of insight from that. As I have from many other forms of philosophy. But first and foremost for me was the necessity to draw my own conclusion and not have any "system" dictated to me. Once again cherry picking.
The thing that has struck me most about Christians in general is how lazy they are in pursuing self-discovery. They just accept without question. This is very dangerous and allows for all manner of abuses. I have come to the conclusion early on that I was not going to live my life based on instructions or orders from someone or something else. I test the validity of all claims. Needless to say the claims of Christianity and all other religions have failed my scrutiny. I am quite iconoclastic in that regard.

I have found in my life that there are numerous examples of erroneous "beliefs" that humans hold not just with God and religion. And to that extent they are all very similar in requiring faith. Faith is probably one of the worst aspects of human nature as it rests on a baseless foundation. Yes, we can all hope for things but faith pushes it to some metaphysical state that is completely illusory. I think that is an egregious error in living.

In any case I have no idea how much I will contribute here but it is nice to see and hear from like minded individuals.
This has got to be the most well written introduction that this forum has ever enjoyed, atleast since I have been a member. Welcome, looking forward to your well thoughtout commentaries!

Plu

Welcome to the forums.

It's true that large sums of money and time were invested in making churches bigger, more beautiful, and otherwise impressive to the people. The motivations are probably a bit sinister, but it's hard to deny that a lot of beautiful art and architecture was designed by religious folk.

Other than that, cherry-picking all the way. Take what works, discard the rest. Why not more people use that very simply and hard to argue with motto I do not understand.

Solitary

:-D Welcome aboard Bobbotov! It's nice to have an older person here besides me with all these whippersnappers that are still wet behind the ears.  :shock:   :lol:  I too was raised by a mother that was Southern Methodist, but have been an atheist since I was six years old. I also agree your introduction was well done.   =D>  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Bobbotov

Quote from: "mykcob4"This has got to be the most well written introduction that this forum has ever enjoyed, atleast since I have been a member. Welcome, looking forward to your well thoughtout commentaries!

Well, thank you. I may not know everything but I can assure you I believe in nothing. I have been challenged on that statement many times as people find it incredulous that you can live without belief in something. You can and you better. Of course semantics aside what I mean by belief is faith without validity. I believe the sun will rise because of the preponderance of evidence that it has so far in my 66 years. It may not tomorrow in which case the repercussions will manifest themselves in ways to obviate any further discussion. I will be dead and so will all others.

I think about what I say. I think about what others say. I find that is a good way to achieve understanding.

One thing religious folks have shown me: they understand little and they rarely think. I personally find that worrisome. Unthinking, unconscious automatons have bungled through the whole of human history causing great misery in the process. If evolution has any significance to the human race it is going to be in achieving the next phase of enlightened consciousness. Being an atheist is an epiphany unto itself. I feel that it is time for humans to transcend its barbaric, reptilian -brained nature and move to the next level of consciousness. And if I could conceive of a God it would be one who also would want his creation to be sentient and enlightened.
___________________________________________________
It is easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled. [/color]
M. Twain

Solitary

When I'm told by theist that find out I'm an atheist and tell me I don't believe in anything I tell them I believe in reality not fairy tails and superstitious nonsense based on magical thinking. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Bobbotov

Quote from: "Plu"Other than that, cherry-picking all the way. Take what works, discard the rest. Why not more people use that very simply and hard to argue with motto I do not understand.

As an artist and musician myself (or with any creative activity) aside from developing the skill sets necessary to render something most of it is about making choices. So is life in general actually. No one can or should choose for you. What makes any artist or person unique is the choices they have made and what they do with them after they have chosen. Cherry picking is essential in making choices. It is not an arbitrary or capricious endeavor. It must be done with reason and proper vetting otherwise it is useless or just wrong. Once you eat a few bad cherries you hopefully learn to be more selective in the future.
___________________________________________________
It is easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled. [/color]
M. Twain

GrinningYMIR

QuoteGrinningYMIR wrote:


We also eat cats, because cats are dirty little rascals


Well, as a person who owns five cats and have had many more in the past forty years I suspect I might have an issue with that aspect:-) I am not a strict vegetarian but do abstain from eating meat as a rule.

I'm a meat eater, but I respect the fact that you don't eat it, having a few friends who do the same, and two pets I'd rather starve than consume.

Also, was it difficult to become an artist? I've always been curious about how one becomes and is successful at being in an artistic profession.
"Human history is a litany of blood shed over differing ideals of rulership and afterlife"<br /><br />Governor of the 32nd Province of the New Lunar Republic. Luna Nobis Custodit

Bobbotov

Quote from: "Solitary"When I'm told by theist that find out I'm an atheist and tell me I don't believe in anything I tell them I believe in reality not fairy tails and superstitious nonsense based on magical thinking. Solitary

Hmm, I think I know reality as I am living it. To me if you know something there is nothing to believe. If you know you are you do you also believe you are you? Once again, semantics can be a topic unto itself.
___________________________________________________
It is easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled. [/color]
M. Twain

Bobbotov

Quote from: "GrinningYMIR"Also, was it difficult to become an artist? I've always been curious about how one becomes and is successful at being in an artistic profession.

I will say this: you do not become an artist: you are one or you are not. You can learn artistic practices, techniques. methodologies and so forth but there is some underlying essence that makes a person an artist. You do art because you have to just like you have to breathe. So in that sense for me being an artist was easy because it is what I am. I have found that being what I am is better than being what I am not.
___________________________________________________
It is easier to fool people than convince them they have been fooled. [/color]
M. Twain

Solitary

I've been a starving professional artist and illustrator all my life  :( , and a professional musician at 15.  =D>  I finally decided I didn't want to be driven to either one and just make a decent living with benefits at a local school district and later working at a resort in their engineering department as a touch up artist that sent me around the world and making enough money to retire.  :-D  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.