US Military being ignorant as usual.

[kilodelta]

Just some spammers. The admins will probably delete it all.

[wolf39us]

Deleted

[mykcob4]

Thought I'd just leave this here for opinions

http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-proble ... 00534.html

I was in the USMC for 22+ years and I always hated it when the ranking individual called for a group prayer. I was almost courtmartialed because I refused to participate. They said that I was denying THEIR constitutional rights. Yep, thats right, that not participating I was violating their rights. Finally I was transfered out of that unit and assigned to a general in the JAG office. He was a Bhuddist. He modified my fitness reports and with favorable reports I was reassigned to a unit that had no idea of my lack of spiritualness.
The faulty saying goes that "there are no atheist in foxholes." The truth is that you don't have time to be a christian or anything else but a fighting unit.
Since my primary duty only involved me and one other individual most of the time there was no problem.

[mykcob4]

To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.

On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.

Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.

It may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery. If you believe in your heart of hearts that if you die you will go to heaven then what do you have to lose? An atheist risking their life, as Pat Tillman did, is true bravery.

Tillman was an extrodinary man to be sure. The fact is that we all define "bravery" as we  see it.
Me, I define bravery as doing what you have to do even though you're scared to death. It doesn't take "god" to face that kind of fear.
Thats why people that have been extrodinarily brave don't think of themselves as brave. They just worked through their fears. They aren't aware of how it looks to anyone else and they don't care.

[kilodelta]

In my USMC experience, I only came across religious imposition at boot camp when the lay reader read something from the bible and during retirement ceremonies where a chaplain gave an invocation.

[mykcob4]

In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?

To hijack an airplane and run it into a building because of decades of foreign oppression in their country? Yeah, I do. I know I sure as fuck couldn't do it.

Just like the troops, I disagree with their methods... but I can't argue against them having balls.

I disagree. Let's leave what we know to be true out of it and look at it from their perspective. If I fly this plane into this building, I go to heaven and have all the virgins. In their heads that is a fact. Death to them is a reward which is why I can't see how people classify them as brave. The troops to a lesser extent, but still the same principle.

As a person that has had direct and combat contact with supposed Islamic terrorist, I can say from my experience that the suicide bombers and socalled freedom fighters don't really believe in that virgin shit. They do it because they believe that thier people are oppressed. And they are right. The problem is they are attacking the wrong people. It's very convelutted. For centuries Arabs have been exploited by everyone under the sun, but mostly by the upper class of their own people (royalty etc....). The Imams blame the infidels for this oppression, just like the conservatives in this country blame everything on Liberals. They preach going back to the old ways as if that was any better. Of course it wasn't but you can't tell them that. These fighters are disillussioned with the world. They have basically become NAZIs and follow the same type and method of ideological dogma.
Freedom fighters/suicide bombers think that they are freeing their people. They don't have any illussion of having virgins in some sort of heaven.
I can understand fighting pulp culturalizm, but I wouldn't do it for monoculturalism which is exactly what they are doing it for. That is exactly what fascism is and that is what they are in a nutshell.

[mykcob4]

In my USMC experience, I only came across religious imposition at boot camp when the lay reader read something from the bible and during retirement ceremonies where a chaplain gave an invocation.

To be honest it's not very often that a CO is fanatical about religion or faith. Most of them are like Obama in that regard. They have faith(probably for political reasons) but they respect everyone else.
So goes the CO so goes the unit!
Semper Fi!

[Jack89]

In my USMC experience, I only came across religious imposition at boot camp when the lay reader read something from the bible and during retirement ceremonies where a chaplain gave an invocation.

To be honest it's not very often that a CO is fanatical about religion or faith. Most of them are like Obama in that regard. They have faith(probably for political reasons) but they respect everyone else.
So goes the CO so goes the unit!
Semper Fi!

That's my experience as well.  Commanders usually keep it to themselves or really low key.  
De Oppresso Liber!

[Nonsensei]

Well its good to hear that this isn't as widespread a problem as might have been believed.

[Seabear]

Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?

[Jack89]

Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?

Of course you're conditioned to think a certain way in the military, it's necessary, but I don't think that's the reason Marines or other prior service people have the stickers on their cars.  What I personally miss about the military is the camaraderie. I was also proud to serve and proud of my accomplishments.  Right after I retired, I noticed that civilians seemed to lack a certain vitality and I had difficulty fitting in. I think it's nostalgia more than anything.

[Seabear]

Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?

Of course you're conditioned to think a certain way in the military, it's necessary, but I don't think that's the reason Marines or other prior service people have the stickers on their cars.  What I personally miss about the military is the camaraderie. I was also proud to serve and proud of my accomplishments.  Right after I retired, I noticed that civilians seemed to lack a certain vitality and I had difficulty fitting in. I think it's nostalgia more than anything.

The Marines just have a lot more of it than anyone else.

[kilodelta]

Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?

Of course you're conditioned to think a certain way in the military, it's necessary, but I don't think that's the reason Marines or other prior service people have the stickers on their cars.  What I personally miss about the military is the camaraderie. I was also proud to serve and proud of my accomplishments.  Right after I retired, I noticed that civilians seemed to lack a certain vitality and I had difficulty fitting in. I think it's nostalgia more than anything.

The Marines just have a lot more of it than anyone else.

That we do. It seems we have to put our logo on everything... my car and motorcycle...

Really, I see it as a way to connect to other Marines. It can give strangers a common ground and usually leads to some fun conversation... making fun of each others MOS or prior assignements.

[mykcob4]

Religion is a form of brain-washing, IMO. So is the military. I know many, many fine people who are former Marines, and even they agree that the Marine Corps is absolutely the best indoctrination program in the world. How many older guys do you see driving around who did a single 4-year hitch and who still have a Corps sticker on their car?

Once a Marine, always a Marine. It's not former Marine, it's inactive Marine.
We love the Corps because it is an institution that believes in the individual, personal pride and personal accountability. Yeah in bootcamp they break you down physically and mentaly and then they build you back up. They don't really brainwash you. You don't become a robot. You learn to call on an inner stregth that you didn't know existed. You learn to endure hardships that you CAN survive almost anything. You learn that others are more important than yourself. You learn that the most important thing in life is not satisfying your immediate wants. You learn to make personal sacrifices without sacrificing yourself.
It's not "god, country, Corps" as people think. It's doing what it takes, it's always doing the right thing. It's honor with integrity. It's never "the ends justifies the means"!

[Adventfred]

interesting