US Military being ignorant as usual.

[ZachyFTW]

Thought I'd just leave this here for opinions

http://news.yahoo.com/u-military-proble ... 00534.html

[Nonsensei]

To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.

On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.

Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.

[stromboli]

It is dangerous. Remove religion from the "duty, honor, country" and you remove a motivator to run into battle. Thinking twice about risking your life for a cause not justified by religion is a real game changer.

[ZachyFTW]

To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.

On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.

Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.

It may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery. If you believe in your heart of hearts that if you die you will go to heaven then what do you have to lose? An atheist risking their life, as Pat Tillman did, is true bravery.

[Shiranu]

Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.

/sarcasm

[stromboli]

I have 2 sons in the military. Both have "no religious preference" on their dog tags. My oldest son was awarded the Bronze Star in Iraq for his actions as a squad leader pulling some exposed Marines out of danger by shielding them and taking heavy fire on his vehicle. He himself returned fire from an exposed position to protect them. Guts doesn't come from religion. In battle it is about protecting your comrades and doing your job, not religion.

But it is a lot more difficult to convince people to serve if they don't believe there is religious justification behind their joining. It is a lot easier to motivate someone to be cannon fodder if they think that they will wind up in heaven if they die. Think how many suicide bombers there would be in Islam if they didn't believe in their god. I can certainly see why the military would be concerned about atheism.

[Nonsensei]

To be honest I can almost see it. Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war. All your actions are justified by God. Your are inspired to acts of bravery with the confidence that God will protect you, and if he doesn't you can be sure you will be rewarded for your sacrifice with eternal paradise.

On the other hand, when you are an atheist and you know that you only have one life, throwing it into the line of fire becomes a much bigger deal. The non-believing men and women who serve in combat are all the more heroic for their service in spite of what they know they are risking.

Just because God isn't real and faith is stupid doesn't mean it has no military applications. A motivated and confident military is essential for victory, even if the reason for that motivation is bullshit and the confidence is unfounded.

It may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery. If you believe in your heart of hearts that if you die you will go to heaven then what do you have to lose? An atheist risking their life, as Pat Tillman did, is true bravery.

I don't think the military cares if its real bravery. What they care about is having soldiers willing to do incredibly risky things on a regular basis.

[FrankDK]

> Historically the belief that God was on your side has been a powerful motivator in war.

That's why the belt buckle of the Nazi uniform had the inscription, "Gott mit uns."  (God with us.)  It's also why 6.5 million Jews were brutally exterminated.

Frank

[Colanth]

It the military wasn't just making it up as they go, "atheist" would have been a valid reason for not being drafted, back when we had a draft, since that automatically renders you unfit for military service, according to these guidelines.

Trust me, all it got you was the choice of serving in the military or the stockade.

At best they're hypocrites, at worst they're full of shit.  (Or are they the same thing?)

[ZachyFTW]

Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.

/sarcasm

Missed the point. What is brave in your opinion? A person going in thinking death means he gets to paradise or another person going in thinking death means the end of everything he will ever be?

[Shiranu]

Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.

/sarcasm

Missed the point. What is brave in your opinion? A person going in thinking death means he gets to paradise or another person going in thinking death means the end of everything he will ever be?

Neither. I think brave is when you are willing to have your limbs blown off and watch your friends get blown up by an IED, or risk getting capture and tortured on camera, because you believe in protecting the United States.

I didn't miss the point, I just don't agree with your extremely limited view on it.

[ZachyFTW]

Yeah, I don't think a soldier who goes into 130 degree desert where he risks watching his friend get blown up, himself getting blown up, captured and tortured or developing a whole range of mental disorders that will completely destroy his life when he comes home is brave either.

/sarcasm

Missed the point. What is brave in your opinion? A person going in thinking death means he gets to paradise or another person going in thinking death means the end of everything he will ever be?

Neither. I think brave is when you are willing to have your limbs blown off and watch your friends get blown up by an IED, or risk getting capture and tortured on camera, because you believe in protecting the United States.

I didn't miss the point, I just don't agree with your extremely limited view on it.

In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?

[Shiranu]

In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?

To hijack an airplane and run it into a building because of decades of foreign oppression and "intervention" in their country? Yeah, I do. I know I sure as fuck couldn't do it.

Just like the troops, I disagree with their methods... but I can't argue against them having balls.

[ZachyFTW]

In that case then, do you believe that the 9/11 bombers were brave?

To hijack an airplane and run it into a building because of decades of foreign oppression in their country? Yeah, I do. I know I sure as fuck couldn't do it.

Just like the troops, I disagree with their methods... but I can't argue against them having balls.

I disagree. Let's leave what we know to be true out of it and look at it from their perspective. If I fly this plane into this building, I go to heaven and have all the virgins. In their heads that is a fact. Death to them is a reward which is why I can't see how people classify them as brave. The troops to a lesser extent, but still the same principle.

[Shiranu]

Bravery does not mean you won't be rewarded afterwards; infact the whole root of bravery is the belief that their is some sort of reward. For the terrorists, it was the deaths of Americans and the afterlife. For Christian soldiers, it is the belief that they are protecting America. For atheists, its the belief they are protecting America. No one does something brave without believing their is a reward for their action.

I don't know anyone in the military who says, "Gee, I sure hope I get shipped to Afghanistan and get killed, because it would be very cool to go to heaven!". Almost all of the military men and women I know have husbands/wives, kids and have no intention of leaving them to fend for themselves and feel terrible having to leave their families. The thing is they feel that their duty as a soldier is the most important thing thing can do... not that they are putting themselves in the fast lane to heaven, not even that it is their duty as a Christian, but that is their duty as an American.

I don't know how much exposure you have had to the troops, but I spent about half my life at military bases and I have yet to meet a soldier who is there to do "God's work" or is in the fast track to heaven. That is not to say they don't exist, I am 99% they do... but for the majority of soldiers, they DO NOT LIKE the fact that they could be killed, they aren't running around celebrating that any day they or their friends could get blown up and go to heaven... they are doing it because it is their job and their (perceived) obligation.

For as much as I despise the military and the MIC, I won't for a second question the bravery of a soldier. These people put themselves into extremely dangerous situations to, in their minds, protect us and to question their motives is, to me, extremely disrespectful.