Is Stand Your Ground Just A White Thing?

[Solitary]

"The concern from the black community is rankled by the fact that there's a disproportionate number of African-Americans incarcerated – an entire generation – which fuels the concern by blacks around the country that stand-your-ground laws are aimed at them, that it's just another way that white Americans are trying to do away with generations of African-Americans, almost like a form of genocide," says Jeffrey Swartz, a former Miami-Dade judge who's now a law professor at Cooley Law School in Tampa, Fla.

Yet in Florida, some of the most ardent defenders of the law have been black defense attorneys. The reason: Their black, often young, clients are the most successful users of the law. Indeed, data show that black defendants have a high success rate in invoking stand your ground in black-on-black violence. In fact, if all cases are taken into account, black defendants have a higher success rate in claiming stand your ground than do white defendants, and they attempt to claim stand your ground at higher rates.

"There is a long history of African-American support for gun rights and the principle of armed self-defense," writes Jelani Cobb, director of the Institute for African-American Studies at the University of Connecticut, in The New Yorker. He cites the Deacons for Defense and Justice, an armed posse that protected civil rights marchers, and former NAACP head Walter White, who protected his home with a rifle during the 1906 Atlanta race riots.

 :-k  I wonder how this works in Chicago for whites? This subject is so sensationalized I don't know what to believe. It just seems me that racism is rampant on both sides of the fence, and everyone having guns is not making us safer. JMO Solitary

[surly74]

has there been a case of a black person using stand your ground successfully against a white person?

[Shiranu]

Here are two stories of "Stand Your Ground" going wrong...

http://sandrarose.com/2012/06/man-freed ... is-killed/

The fact he was killed is irrelevant, the fact that he was freed is the real meat of the story.

Garcia's car was being robbed, so he went outside and confronted the guy with a butcher knife. The thief ends up running away, and Garcia pursues him for several blocks. Finally Garcia catches up, and begins to stab the thief in the chest, killing him (I have seen the video of it; the thief is not attacking back, he has quit running and turn towards Garcia with his hands away from his body).

Garcia then goes home, hides the knife, does not call the police and sells two of the radios the guy had stolen.

He is found innocent because he was "protecting himself" with stand your ground... even though he pursued the guy several blocks away from his house.

_____________

The other story on the news was of a black man (I forget his name, otherwise I would find an article about it) who was at a bar when several gang members attempt to mug him. He gets beaten up and is on the ground, manages to pull a pocket knife and stab one of the gangsters, killing him.

He gets 20 in jail for murder... even though he was being assaulted and killed someone who was beating the shit out of him and committing a crime.

"Stand Your Ground" would more accurately be called, "We Are Making The Law Up As We Go!". It gives good defense attorneys a chance to let the guilty walk away scott-free and the innocent are often times not offered defense under the law.

And of course there is the story of Marissa Alexander that I have posted here before... she is in her house, her abusive husband has cornered her into the garage... she shoots a bullet into the roof to scare him away, she gets 20 years.

[surly74]

the facts according to media trackers don't back that up.

And of course there is the story of Marissa Alexander that I have posted here before... she is in her house, her abusive husband has cornered her into the garage... she shoots a bullet into the roof to scare him away, she gets 20 years.

Gut reaction is to say how unfair something is but the more i read the less inclinded I am to think any injustice was done here. should she get 20 years? I think that's extreme but she had many options to leave the home. She didn't even call 911. The husband did.

there are also good points about the warning shot and whether or not deadly force was required ( if she fired a warning shot, then it wasn't).

http://mediatrackers.org/florida/2013/0 ... in-florida

Where she was let down was the harsh penalties Florida has. That's the real problem. Ironically if she had killed the man then there wouldn't have been any chance of a deposition by him. It would have been her word only. She may have gotten off.

[Solitary]

Here is what I found: http://youtu.be/VqeXWPNOHvY   http://youtu.be/T1NoQgCNNJE


5. Death on the basketball court, 2012 (Florida) – Trevor Dooley, 69, took his gun with him to confront a teenager riding a skateboard on the basketball court near his Valrico home. When David James, 41, who was playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter, stood up for the skateboarder, the men fought and Dooley, a school bus driver shot him dead. Dooley (who is black, James was white) is seeking to dismiss his manslaughter case under Stand Your Ground.

6. John McNeil. 2005 (Georgia) – McNeil, who is black, said his son was frightened by a white contractor, Brian Epp, who pulled a knife. McNeil raced home and when Epp rushed him, shot him in the head. A year later — though the state had by then passed a Stand Your Ground law — prosecutors charged McNeil with second degree murder. Though neighbors testified Epp scared them too, McNeil is serving life in prison.

7. Tallahassee gun fight, 2008 (Florida) – A gunfight between rival gang members left 15-year-old Michael Jackson dead in a hail of bullets. However, the judge, Terry Lewis, dismissed charges against the two surviving gang members under Stand Your Ground, saying "the law would appear to allow a person to seek out an individual, provoke him into a confrontation, then shoot and kill him if he goes for his gun. ... It's very much like the wild west."

8. Bo Morrison, 2012 (Wisconsin) – The 20 year old attended a party in a small town called Singer. When police broke up the bash due to underage drinking, people scattered, including Morrison, who hid in the enclosed porch of Adam Kind, who spotted him at 1:56 and shot him dead. The shooting was ruled justifiable under the state's Castle Doctrine. Kind is white, Morrison is biracial.

10. Shooting caught on 911 tape, 2007 (Texas) – Perhaps the eeriest "Stand Your Ground" case is that of "Joe Horn, the 62-year-old Pasadena, Texas man who called 911 to warn them that he was about to shoot two alleged burglars. Though the dispatcher tried to talk him out of it, Horn (center) shot undocumented immigrants Hernando Riasccos Torres, 38 (left), and Diego Ortiz, 30 (right, both in the back, while the tape rolled. A grand jury cleared Horn.

Black people who shoot white strangers have the lowest chance of being found not guilty, while white people who shoot black strangers enjoy the highest chance of a not-guilty verdict. It is worth noting that white people who shoot black strangers have the highest chance of getting away with it regardless of the state's self-defense laws. The presence of Stand Your Ground laws tip the odds even more in favor of white shooters. SYG has a slight impact on black-on-black crime, and it has almost no impact whatsoever on black-on-white crime.

This data is disturbing, but it is important to point out that correlation does not necessitate causation. It certainly seems that race affects juries' decisions, but there could be other factors at play. For example, there continues to be a wage gap between white and black workers. It could be the case that white people are able to afford better lawyers, so they earn more not guilty verdicts. It is difficult to determine the cause of these statistics without a more comprehensive study.

Solitary

[Colanth]

7. Tallahassee gun fight, 2008 (Florida) – A gunfight between rival gang members left 15-year-old Michael Jackson dead in a hail of bullets. However, the judge, Terry Lewis, dismissed charges against the two surviving gang members under Stand Your Ground, saying "the law would appear to allow a person to seek out an individual, provoke him into a confrontation, then shoot and kill him if he goes for his gun. ... It's very much like the wild west."

It's nothing like the Wild West.  In the old West, you had to assume that the person you confronted was armed, and he'd blow you away for merely reaching for your gun.  (And get away with it.)  Today you can assume that the person you're going to shoot isn't armed, since the vast majority don't go around armed.

This data is disturbing, but it is important to point out that correlation does not necessitate causation. It certainly seems that race affects juries' decisions, but there could be other factors at play.

And smoking may not be a leading cause of lung cancer.  But Occam's Razor says that a major factor in the apparent justice disparity is race.  (Especially if you're white and keep your ears open.)

[Solitary]

I agree, but wonder if that is true, how the man in the second video was found not guilty like Zimmerman was before there was a stand your ground law. I think the real questions are why there were no riots when he was found innocent? And why there were when Zimmerman was not found guilty? It seems like there is discrimination from everyone, white or black, in the Zimmerman trial. Is the Stand Your Ground hyped up by the media the reason? And let's not forget OJ being found not guilty with overwhelming evidence that he was.

This supports the idea that income decides trials more than what race a person is. Why should money decide and not the evidence. I watched the OJ trial and the Zimmerman trial, and it is my opinion OJ was guilty, and Zimmerman was not from the evidence presented in both trials no matter what the law was in both cases. Were there riots after OJ was found not guilty, were their any when he was?  Solitary