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Reza Aslan - Islamic Misperceptions

Started by Shiranu, July 31, 2013, 08:27:13 AM

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Shiranu

[youtube:16kkeno0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYRw-NTp_hk[/youtube:16kkeno0]

00:45 - 2:35: Diversity in Modern Islam

Talks about how how Islam is the most diverse religion in the world, due to the fact that it is 1.6 billion people without any central authority. Lacks the unity that say the second largest (Roman Catholics, 1 billion) have with the Pope who, while there are diverse trains of thought in the RCC, gives them a unified figure to turn to.

2:50 - 5:25: Western World vs Arab World a False Premise & Moderates vs Extremists

Points out that Arab Muslims only make up about 13% of the Muslim population, that only 1 top 5 population country is an "Arab" country. Talks about the conflict in authority going on in Islam (their possible Reformation period) and that, like other Reformations it is bloody.

5:35 - 7:03: Is Islam Compatible to the Modern World?

Argues that when people say that Islam isn't compatible with the modern world, they really mean to say that, "Islam is different... that the cultural factors that have changed other religions don't work on Islam, that Islam is the same from Turkey to Egypt to Indonesia to Pakistan...".

7:17 - 9:00ish: Freedom of Speech (in this case, "anti-Mohammad") in Islamic World

Points out that in Germany, you are not allowed to say anything Nazi related, in Turkiye no "anti-Ataturk" sentiments, but we do not say, "Germany and Turkiye are radical nations!" and that when you criticize a Muslim country for stifling freedom of speech against Mohammad you have to be honest and admit that it's just as bad when Western countries do it as well (sorry to imply Turkiye is western, but it's *more* western than most other Muslim countries).

9:19 - 11:48: Challenge Presented to American Muslims Post-9/11, The Importation of European "Islamophobia" and "Islamization" Fears

Points out that American Muslim community is 3.5 million people, 1% of population... highest level of wealth in any immigrant community, highest education and highest citizen rates, assimilated into American society... but feared.

Talks about how the fear of, "Any day the Muslims are going to take over!", even though they are only about 1% of the population, and how this was imported from several ultra-nationalistic groups from European countries in the mid-2000's. Fear sells and fear gets you votes.

11:53 - : Is It Possible To Change Peoples' Minds

Bigotry isn't a thing about ignorance, its a thing about fear. The only way to get over a prejudice is to actually know people of those groups.

Overall I liked the video and agreed with most of what he has to say.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Fidel_Castronaut

Quote from: "Shiranu"Points out that American Muslim community is 3.5 million people, 1% of population... highest level of wealth in any immigrant community, highest education and highest citizen rates, assimilated into American society... but feared.

Talks about how the fear of, "Any day the Muslims are going to take over!", even though they are only about 1% of the population, and how this was imported from several ultra-nationalistic groups from European countries in the mid-2000's. Fear sells and fear gets you votes.

Not really related but it's the exact opposite here in England.

Muslim demographics (especially from the Indian sub-continent, eg Pakistan and Bangladesh) are generally the poorest & least well educated in our society. They also tend to be more ghettoised than any other demographic.

I don't want to start another conversation about Islamophobia, but needless to say I think it's a nonsense term and doesn't descibe what people thing it describes (I dislike Islam a lot as a religion, technically classing me as Islamophobic, but I don't have more or less problems with any specific Muslim than I would any other person in society).

EDIT: On a break so may as well keep typing out some thoughts.

Quote2:50 - 5:25: Western World vs Arab World a False Premise & Moderates vs Extremists

Points out that Arab Muslims only make up about 13% of the Muslim population, that only 1 top 5 population country is an "Arab" country. Talks about the conflict in authority going on in Islam (their possible Reformation period) and that, like other Reformations it is bloody.

Sort of agree. The idea of us vs them is really a primordial stance that has been discredited through constructivism and the understanding that cause = effect. The west advanced and moderated its political and religious structures hundreds of years ago (or at least began the process), ensuring its current dominance as a net producer of productivity and technology. The Islamic world however, if one can homogenise, hasn't done anything remotely like this, and is now a net consumer of what the West and some other regions produce. There's no renewal or advancement because, as a 'region', it relies on the economic health of regions around it.

Constructivism teaches us that everything can be reduced down to its base elements and biult back up again, and the above is a very short and parsimonious description of why the Islamic world is both a slave of economic advancements elsewhere, and a slave (to some degree) to the domianating ideologies of extremism that permeate into its societies.

I actually wrote my MA thesis on extreme ideologies in the Islamic world and their ability to supplant the moderate ideologies that compete with them. One central issue was the dominance of Arab culture in Islamic states that really should have no connection to them, such as Sierra Leone, and the way that everything from the way of eating to the way of dressing has permeated into these states making them less unique, and more susceptible to extreme ideologies from the Arab peninsula and elsewhere.
lol, marquee. HTML ROOLZ!

Shiranu

QuoteI don't want to start another conversation about Islamophobia, but needless to say I think it's a nonsense term and doesn't descibe what people thing it describes (I dislike Islam a lot as a religion, technically classing me as Islamophobic, but I don't have more or less problems with any specific Muslim than I would any other person in society).

I know you don't want to start a convo on it, but I do have to reply to this one bit really quick...

Then in your case I don't think it would imply, and I definitely think people are way too quick to throw the term around. However the people Aslan, and when I think of the term, are referring to are you ultra-nationalist groups who imply that anyday the entire country will go from as you know it now to overnight everyone has brown skin and is wearing burqas, that Muslims are infiltrating the government and if you aren't a Muslim you are going to be publicly stoned and executed. These people have a deep fear that Islam is, any day now, going to take over and I think "Islamophobia", the irrational fear of Islam, is a proper term for these people.

I don't think being anti-Islam makes you an Islamophobic anymore than being anti-Christian makes you Christophobic; its the irrational fear that your entire culture is on the blade's edge of being completely subjugated by a group that makes you a x-phobic.  

QuoteMuslim demographics (especially from the Indian sub-continent, eg Pakistan and Bangladesh) are generally the poorest & least well educated in our society. They also tend to be more ghettoised than any other demographic.

That's an interesting point. Here in the U.S., IIRC, the largest group are the Iranians... people who fled the well-educated, democratic nation when we turned it into an Islamic hellhole. This number varies though, official numbers are only in the 200,000s , but the U.S. Government estimates more accurately it would be 2 million. Next you have Lebanese and Syrians who are also pretty well educated compared to Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. But these people also have a strong work ethic (mixed with their education) and a strong desire to integrate, which I think ties into his point about how the Islamic world is not a single, homogeneous group but a mesh of different cultures and beliefs.

And I think there is one of the problems... low income, low education immigrants tend to not integrate as well as other populations, regardless of ethnicity or religion.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

baronvonrort

Reza Aslan is promoting his version of Islam which no scholars agree with,i would not waste my time listening to his dawaganda, i think the mods should reprimand you for posting his crap in this forum.

I think this video with Dr Zuhdi Jasser the President of the American Islamic forum for democracy is better to watch he appears with Reza Aslan.

[youtube:ads8ovat]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOp4O9FwzRw[/youtube:ads8ovat]

Here is the American Islamic forum for democracy's website,Dr Jasser has written many articles critical of Reza Aslan.
//http://www.aifdemocracy.org/category/aifd-in-the-news/

You can probably count on one hand how many muslims follow Dr Jasser

Solitary

QuoteBigotry isn't a thing about ignorance, its a thing about fear. The only way to get over a prejudice is to actually know people of those groups.


I agree with this.


QuoteOverall I liked the video and agreed with most of what he has to say.


I also agree with this.  Any knowledge is good, only ignorance is bad. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

SilentFutility

Quote5:35 - 7:03: Is Islam Compatible to the Modern World?

Argues that when people say that Islam isn't compatible with the modern world, they really mean to say that, "Islam is different... that the cultural factors that have changed other religions don't work on Islam, that Islam is the same from Turkey to Egypt to Indonesia to Pakistan...".
Arguably the religion is the same, and it is interpreted differently around the globe. The Koran is still the same book, if two people read the same sentence and think different things about it and act differently, it's still the same sentence.

Quote7:17 - 9:00ish: Freedom of Speech (in this case, "anti-Mohammad") in Islamic World
 
Points out that in Germany, you are not allowed to say anything Nazi related, in Turkiye no "anti-Ataturk" sentiments, but we do not say, "Germany and Turkiye are radical nations!" and that when you criticize a Muslim country for stifling freedom of speech against Mohammad you have to be honest and admit that it's just as bad when Western countries do it as well (sorry to imply Turkiye is western, but it's *more* western than most other Muslim countries).
Outlawing a radical political party that was responsible for genocide is not the same as forbidding any criticism of something.

I didn't watch the video but these are my thoughts on those general trains of thought.

LikelyToBreak

I think this guy, Reza Aslan, is disingenuous.  It seems to me, he has cherry picked some questions, which have nothing to do with the teachings of Islam.  Just how Muslims are nice people.  Which is true.  There are many nice, honest, hard-working Muslims.  There are also murdering jerks amongst the Muslims too.  

In my opinion, we should consider two things which Reza Aslan doesn't want to address.  One is the actual teachings in the Koran and the Hadith.  The other is, what happens when there is a majority of Muslims in a country?  We have history and current events to show us how infidels are treated.  

While it is the right of Muslims to worship as they please, but when they advocate for Sharia law, over the constitution, they are being seditious.  In my opinion.  

Keep in mind, it is not a sin for a Muslim to lie, if it is for Islam.  Here is a nice short video illustrating this:

 [youtube:3egkqrv2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKs7oi_-NUo[/youtube:3egkqrv2]

Keep in mind though, that it is a peawit who judges the individual by the group.  Which is why I am a proponent of desegregation.  As individuals, Muslims can and often do make America a better country.  But, not as a group.  We have enough tribalism here without adding more.

Cocoa Beware

The guy talks about diversity and variation.

I was wondering, is there an Islamic nation that treats women or homosexuals as equals? The only variation there is the extent to which they are persecuted.

The guy has lived in America most of his life. He talking about places hes never been to.

QuoteIslam is the same from Turkey to Egypt to Indonesia to Pakistan...".

What happened to diversity?

Shiranu

#8
Quote...i think the mods should reprimand you for posting his crap in this forum.

I hope that was sarcasm.

"You disagree with me, so I think the authorities should punish you!"

You uh... you do realize the humour in that, right? Since we are talking about Islam, and it... oh, forget it...

Typing in Aslan's name in the site, the only article on it was the video you posted, so I cant comment on his criticisms of Aslan. As for the video you posted, I'll go down the list...

1. It started off with the guy complaining about the Mosque being built "on ground zero", which was a load of horseshit to begin with. It was "built" blocks away, in an building that was for sale. I don't know if you are familiar with New York, but you don't get to just walk down a street and choose any building you want. I'm sorry, but this guy did not get off to a good start by opening with that bullshit.

2. Reza completely shot him down. Sorry. It's not a mosque and the only people who made a deal out of it were people who weren't affected by it. The locals didn't seem to care enough to say anything.

QuoteYou can probably count on one hand how many muslims follow Dr Jasser

Well that video wasn't a great argument for them to start.

QuoteThe guy has lived in America most of his life. He talking about places hes never been to.

Except he has traveled across the Middle East for his job, as well as deal with people from the various cultures.

QuoteWhat happened to diversity?

What happened to reading comprehension? If you would have quoted the whole thing you would realize that's not his position but what he (accurately) accuses people of thinking.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Shiranu

QuoteI think this guy, Reza Aslan, is disingenuous. It seems to me, he has cherry picked some questions, which have nothing to do with the teachings of Islam. Just how Muslims are nice people. Which is true. There are many nice, honest, hard-working Muslims. There are also murdering jerks amongst the Muslims too.

This is one interview. He says there are murdering jerk Muslims, even in this video; he talks about how the Islamic world is possibly going through its Reformation, and that's why the extremism has really increased over the last hundred years.

QuoteIn my opinion, we should consider two things which Reza Aslan doesn't want to address. One is the actual teachings in the Koran and the Hadith. The other is, what happens when there is a majority of Muslims in a country? We have history and current events to show us how infidels are treated.

He does though. For example his first book was criticized for referencing the Hadiths.

I'm sorry, but the arguments I have seen against him come across as, "I haven't watched the video, but I'm just going to make assumption after assumption."

QuoteArguably the religion is the same, and it is interpreted differently around the globe. The Koran is still the same book, if two people read the same sentence and think different things about it and act differently, it's still the same sentence.

I see where your coming from, but I think religion, and any ideology, are more than just words on paper. We don't say that the hippies on communes are the same as Leninists even though they both were influenced by Communism. Nor do we argue that Roman Catholics are basically Evangelicals because they have the same source material. Religion is more than it's source material; it is the behaviour and beliefs of its followers.

QuoteOutlawing a radical political party that was responsible for genocide is not the same as forbidding any criticism of something.

That first one is a bit questionable, though I still agree with his basic premise.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

LikelyToBreak

Shiranu wrote in part:
QuoteThis is one interview. He says there are murdering jerk Muslims, even in this video; he talks about how the Islamic world is possibly going through its Reformation, and that's why the extremism has really increased over the last hundred years.
I watched the video.  But, admittedly I didn't pay it much attention while I did.  He sounds so much like so many other Muslim apologists after a while I didn't even want to pay attention.  I want to believe that Islam is going through a Reformation, but I don't believe what Muslims say about Islam.  The video I put up shows as to why.  I haven't read any of his books, and seriously doubt I ever will.  

I did read Ibn Warraq's book Why I am Not a Muslim.  He even autographed it for me.   :-D

Colanth

Quote from: "Shiranu"1. It started off with the guy complaining about the Mosque being built "on ground zero", which was a load of horseshit to begin with. It was "built" blocks away, in an building that was for sale. I don't know if you are familiar with New York, but you don't get to just walk down a street and choose any building you want. I'm sorry, but this guy did not get off to a good start by opening with that bullshit.

2. Reza completely shot him down. Sorry. It's not a mosque and the only people who made a deal out of it were people who weren't affected by it. The locals didn't seem to care enough to say anything.
^This.

1. Anyone who knows NYC knows that the location of the building in question (I won't call it a mosque, since that's not what they wanted to put there) was not at, or even what a New Yorker would call close to, ground zero.  Culturally it was as far from ground zero as San Francisco.  Even Chambers and Broadway is a totally different world than ground zero, and that's only a few blocks away.

2. They wanted to create a community center in a building they owned, and which was properly zoned.  I really can't see a community center where they wanted to put one, but that's their problem.  If they contract "build it and no one comes" syndrome, I don't care.

Some of us said something at the time - we said "let them build it."  We - who had to brush 9-11 off our cars and streets on the morning of 9-12.  We - who look at the sky and see a hole in it.  We had no problem with a community center owned by Muslims, within a short walk of ground zero.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

baronvonrort

Quote from: "LikelyToBreak"Shiranu wrote in part:
QuoteThis is one interview. He says there are murdering jerk Muslims, even in this video; he talks about how the Islamic world is possibly going through its Reformation, and that's why the extremism has really increased over the last hundred years.
I watched the video.  But, admittedly I didn't pay it much attention while I did.  He sounds so much like so many other Muslim apologists after a while I didn't even want to pay attention.  I want to believe that Islam is going through a Reformation, but I don't believe what Muslims say about Islam.  The video I put up shows as to why.  I haven't read any of his books, and seriously doubt I ever will.  

I did read Ibn Warraq's book Why I am Not a Muslim.  He even autographed it for me.   :-D

The muslim world is going through a reformation, thanks to Saudi petrodollars it is becoming more fundamental, the Saudis finance a lot of Mosques worldwide,Iran finances a lot of shit like Hezbollah (party of god).
If you click on the link and look at what Afghanistan was like in the 1960's (Iran and Egypt as well) you might wonder how the fuck the Taliban could ever take over.
When you look at what Afghanistan was like and what it became under the Taliban you can see what happens with too much Islam.
//http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/05/27/once_upon_a_time_in_afghanistan?page=0,0#0

Reza Aslan was a evangelical christian in the USA before he became a muslim,he is a convert to Islam like that idiot Hamza Yusef and the old bloke i call Yusef testes.

Freediver wrote an article on the deception of non muslims in debating and from my experiences i can tell you they speak fluent bullshit.
//http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Deception_of_Non-Muslims
I post in Freedivers forum we have 3 muslims there at present so i prefer to type to muslims instead of typing to Islamic apologists who claim to be atheists while defending that delusional belief.
I dont need any help with the muslims at oz politic forum it is under control.

I did put a link to a free download of Ibn Warraq's book in this forum before they changed it, its a good book and worth reading.

Colanth

Quote from: "baronvonrort"If you click on the link and look at what Afghanistan was like in the 1960's (Iran and Egypt as well) you might wonder how the fuck the Taliban could ever take over.
There's no ""wonder" to it - the US financed the mujahideen to counter the Soviets (we, the UK, Saudi Arabia, spent billions training and arming them).  Once the USSR left, there was no law, so the warlords regained power (most Muslim countries started off as clans and tribes, not countries).  The Taliban just stepped into the power vacuum.

No "wonder" at all at this time.  Back in the 80s?  Well, some people wonder why they get wet when they stand out in the rain, so I guess we can forgive Ronnie - especially since he was already suffering from Alzheimer's.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Shiranu

QuoteThere's no ""wonder" to it - the US financed the mujahideen to counter the Soviets (we, the UK, Saudi Arabia, spent billions training and arming them). Once the USSR left, there was no law, so the warlords regained power (most Muslim countries started off as clans and tribes, not countries). The Taliban just stepped into the power vacuum.

Same thing in Iran; UK was butthurt that BP (Then Anglo-Persian Oil Company) was being kicked out, so they had the U.S. overthrow the democratic, secular government which allowed the Mullahs to take power.

And is the Taliban in power in Egypt? I thought it was the Muslim Brotherhood and Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, who have been there since post-WW2 and were kept in check by both The Wafd Party and Mubarak.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur