We Are So Proud Of Ourselves---Why?

[Solitary]

http://youtu.be/NyKeOFE6NqE   Why do we think our system is better than theirs, the only way it is better is medicine, and that is debatable with so many accidental deaths in hospitals and the from prescription drug side effects. Solitary

[Hakurei Reimu]

Don't confuse civilization with its incidentals.

There's the fact that these cultures are vulnerable, not just directly from more advanced civilizations (in guns vs spears, bet on the guns every time), but from the hazards of nature and civilization. For one thing, "no pollution" is bullshit. They don't make much in the way of air pollution, true, but their primitive (sorry, "proud") status does not magically cleanse the air around them. They'll be hit by climate change even harder than civilized peoples, because they cannot depend on long distance neighbors to help them out of a jam. Yeah, we caused that problem, but we're also in the best position to solve and mitigate it.

The ad says "no prisons." This is a red herring. Does their 'no prisons' status mean that there is no crime? Bullshit. They have crime. They have people who will disrupt the social order. And if you don't have prisons, what do you do with them then?

And let's not forget the fact that they don't have a space program. The dinosaurs didn't have one either, and look what happened to them.

They are much more at the mercy of their environment than we are, and their existence is dependent on what we would call "civilization" to save them even if they don't know it. There's nothing to be "proud" of here.

[Shiranu]

Yeah, we caused that problem, but we're also in the best position to solve and mitigate it.

Except we won't, and that's a pretty piss poor reason to condemn someone... "Yeah, we fucked you over... it's your fault!"

The ad says "no prisons." This is a red herring. Does their 'no prisons' status mean that there is no crime? Bullshit. They have crime. They have people who will disrupt the social order. And if you don't have prisons, what do you do with them then?

Yeah, agreed with this one.

And let's not forget the fact that they don't have a space program. The dinosaurs didn't have one either, and look what happened to them.

And look what's happening to us... we are destroying the one planet we have LONG before we can even dream of colonizing another planet or space.

They are much more at the mercy of their environment than we are, and their existence is dependent on what we would call "civilization" to save them even if they don't know it. There's nothing to be "proud" of here.

Mostly from problems the "saviours" created. Not impressed.

[stromboli]

People believe their country/society is best largely through indoctrination and early learning. I thought being a Mormon in Utah US of A was the ultimate at age 10. Now, I think this country is broken and doubt it can be fixed. I am seriously contemplating a move to Uruguay of Belize. My wife's health situation and other factors are all that keep me here. I certainly am not proud of my country.

Your ideal society is one that is separated in time and space and protected by outside forces to allow them to live that way. Any native culture that sees an advantage to something from outside its sphere of existence will adopt it- it took American Indians about 300 years to go from existing on foot to being borne on horses, all across the West and Southwestern United States and also Canada; and also the use of firearms. They immediately saw the advantage and adapted. So-called primitve tribes in South America have adapted to modern clothing and other items, such as outboard motors on their dugouts.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Yeah, we caused that problem, but we're also in the best position to solve and mitigate it.

Except we won't, and that's a pretty piss poor reason to condemn someone... "Yeah, we fucked you over... it's your fault!"

In case you haven't noticed, we are going to be hurting too because of climate change. And at NO POINT have I said that being fucked over is "their fault," and I'd appreciate you not shipping that strawman, thank you.

And look what's happening to us... we are destroying the one planet we have LONG before we can even dream of colonizing another planet or space.

Being at the mercy of the universe is not a solution. Our current problems are caused by our shortsightedness, a trait that "primitive/proud" cultures share.

They are much more at the mercy of their environment than we are, and their existence is dependent on what we would call "civilization" to save them even if they don't know it. There's nothing to be "proud" of here.

Mostly from problems the "saviours" created. Not impressed.

Wallowing in ignorance and waiting to be killed by a random natural event is nothing to be "proud" of.

[Solitary]

So you don't think having no poverty, no bombs, no pollution, no corruption, no prisons, no caste system is something to be proud of.  :roll:  And how arrogant, ignorant, and bigoted for you to think they wallow in ignorance because they don't have schools that turn out educated idiots. And by the way, we too are waiting to be killed by natural events, and they don't have killings by man made events in this tribe by guns, not even blow guns or knives. This tribe does not have prisons because they don't need them. This is the same kind of bull shit that was said about Native Americans that were more civilized than we were before we decided to rape their women and scalp the Indians. By the way, the Indians never lost a major war with the white people. CUSTER

Their environment has been the same for millions of years before the loggers came and deforested them while killing their tribes. We are way more a mercy of our environment then they are. Civilization needed to save them while civilization is killing them for greed. Amazing to me how people think because they are educated they are not ignorant or stupid, and people that aren't are ignorant and stupid. You may have more knowledge like Hitler and the Nazis had than they do, but if you think that makes you superior and something to be proud of you are an idiot. :roll:  Solitary

[Shiranu]

In case you haven't noticed, we are going to be hurting too because of climate change. And at NO POINT have I said that being fucked over is "their fault," and I'd appreciate you not shipping that strawman, thank you.

Right... so, "We caused the problem, but you're inability to deal with it is your fault" is not a "fuck you" to them.

Sorry, that sounds like a good cup of "fuck you".

Wallowing in ignorance and waiting to be killed by a random natural event is nothing to be "proud" of.

I think Solitary responded well enough to this.

We are way more a mercy of our environment then they are.

This. Our entire society is based on the exploitation of limited resources.

[Eric1958]

Interesting discussion, but are we serious? Yes there have been lots of small groups of pre industrial peoples who were able to live in much greater symbiosis with their environment than we are. But I doubt it's possible to scale up those societies to support the billions of people who live in our world today. I'm not saying their way of life isn't beautiful. I am saying it only works for very small groups. Here in Alaska we still have native peoples who try to live the way they did before the industrial age invaded. Coastal natives still hunt whales, many tribes still move to summer fish camps to load up on spawning salmon to feed them and their dog teams through the winter. Working on this level, they were also able to look out for each other. When the hunters returned home from the hunt they could ensure that those families that didn't have a hunter still had enough to eat. The elders were respected and cared for.

It works well for groups that don't number more than a few hundred. Once you scale it up into thousands and millions.... You get my point.

Regrettably the alcoholism rate in these villages is very high. I've even heard the rate estimated at over fifty percent for everyone in many villages 12 years old and up. The smoking rate is also high as is the suicide rate. I'm sure this isn't news to anyone. Most pre industrial societies seldom mix well when the industrial age moves in next door. Living in symbiosis with our environment is a beautiful thing, who knows, maybe we'll figure out how to do it on our scale some day.

[Plu]

Couldn't you basically remake this video with a tribe of monkeys instead of people and make the exact same arguments?

[Shiranu]

Couldn't you basically remake this video with a tribe of monkeys instead of people and make the exact same arguments?

Not really.

I guess in maybe that murdering an ant and murdering a human could be considered the same branch of an argument you could say they are similar, but... only a Jain would probably argue that.

[Plu]

Why not? "No Pollution", "No Bombs", "No Prisons" apply to monkeys. "No Caste System" might for some species of monkeys, I'm not sure. Probably applies, though.

Those things aren't really achievements. They're just indicators of very small and technologically un-advanced species of primates. All four of these things mentioned are consequences of growth in the size of a society. (Well, "Bombs" only if taken in the context of war and violence to other tribes, but still)

Obviously, those things aren't going to exist in a really small rain-forest tribe, just like they won't exist in a tribe of monkeys. But the only way to remove them from our "advanced" (by which I simply mean "larger") society, is to kill most of its members.

[Shiranu]

I agree it wouldn't work on the large scale, I just have a problem with insulting people who live a traditional lifestyle, or acting like we are somehow better.

We, the one's using a phone made in a sweat-shop in China, wearing clothing made in Bangladesh, a computer with parts from Sri Lanka, eating food picked by Mexicans who are payed jack-shit, wearing jewelry from Indonesia, paying taxes that are used to bomb children in Pakistan and Yemen, supporting an oil economy that destroys the world for everyone and continuing to pollute the atmosphere's and oceans... we are SOOOO much better than those primitive peoples.

Get real (not at you, Plu). Modern humanity is, at it's core, a parasitic disease upon the world that beats its own chest as it leads itself, and the rest of the world with it, into ruination. For every amazing thing we do as a species, we do 10 things 10 times worse.

It is what it is, though. We aren't going to change, and if we survive it will be thanks to a minority figuring out how to fix the majorities selfishness... either through technology or enforcing laws prohibiting excessive selfishness. I see the first one as the far more likely...

But to sum it up; we are a pathetic group, our only redeeming quality seems to be the beauty of our individual lives and the minorities who actually care about fixing what we do wrong.  We are in no place to judge people for being any less "advance" to us because we are still nothing more than monkey's with the tools to destroy the world.

[Plu]

I wasn't insulting anyone, so if it's directed at me I think you misunderstood my point.

(If it's directed others, then fair game. I agree with most of your post.)

[Shiranu]

I wasn't insulting anyone, so if it's directed at me I think you misunderstood my point.

(If it's directed others, then fair game. I agree with most of your post.)

Yeah, should have threw the (Not at you, Plu) in a bit better. Only the very first part was at your comment (the agreeing on the size issue).

[Eric1958]

I agree it wouldn't work on the large scale, I just have a problem with insulting people who live a traditional lifestyle, or acting like we are somehow better.

We, the one's using a phone made in a sweat-shop in China, wearing clothing made in Bangladesh, a computer with parts from Sri Lanka, eating food picked by Mexicans who are payed jack-shit, wearing jewelry from Indonesia, paying taxes that are used to bomb children in Pakistan and Yemen, supporting an oil economy that destroys the world for everyone and continuing to pollute the atmosphere's and oceans... we are SOOOO much better than those primitive peoples.

Get real (not at you, Plu). Modern humanity is, at it's core, a parasitic disease upon the world that beats its own chest as it leads itself, and the rest of the world with it, into ruination. For every amazing thing we do as a species, we do 10 things 10 times worse.

Ok, my philosophy of life is that there is no right and wrong. Life is here to perpetuate itself and if we're good at it we get to survive threw another generation. I've heard that sharks haven't evolved for millions of years because they are such effective predators. But evolution isn't just about biology. It also applies to people and societies as well. Three and four hundred years ago there were villages and towns in America and Europe who supported themselves by weaving cloth in their homes. Then industrial equipment was developed that allowed mills to produce cloth much more efficiently. Over the next years many people found themselves unable to make a living. Groups of these people formed and protested and sometimes stormed the mills to break the equipment. This is the earliest usage of the word "ludite". Were they "right" to hate this change that displaced them? Was it right or wrong when neanderthal man found him/herself losing the fight for life to other primates?

By the way, when I make this argument, it's not without knowing what it feels like to get passed up. I recently was fired from a job I'd had for 20 years. I worked in broadcasting and when the station transitioned from analog to digital broadcasting I had trouble adapting. The control room I had spent years working in and was responsible for completely changed. I got a new boss who was very sharp and twenty years younger than I am. Anyway, I wasn't able to adapt and was let go. Too bad for me, but the station is thriving. Where we once had one channel, we now have four. We once used to maintain the station with four engineers, we now use one and a half. Is it better now? No, it's more efficient and that is what counts.

Evolution applies to our minds, companies, governments and biological life. And yes, it applies to the Awa too.