Making America more like Europe

[SGOS]

United States and Europe are two different cultures. Far more different than Europeans would dare to say or Americans would like to accept. This is not necessarily a bad thing either. Europe is not an ideal place. Its make up and policy is. Same bullshit is happening there too. They have been around longer than US.

Why would trying to be like Europe would solve any other country's problems?

The OP suggests that as the issue, but I think even for the most liberal of us US citizens, it's not really that we want to be like Europe.  It's more like we see things that work well in Europe, and would like to incorporate them in our own culture.  Sure, I assume Europe has problems too, but there are some very good things there that I see no reason to exclude from our culture.  Especially when exclusion is based on the assumption that because they are European, they can't be worth a damn.  My conservative friends are quick to point out that they don't want to be like Europe, but they sort of imply that everything in Europe is East Berlin in the 1950s.  OK, that's an exaggeration.  They are not quite that bad, but they are pretty closed minded about it, and I don't think very well informed.

[SGOS]

My cousin is ultra conservative, and he complained about national healthcare because "it's so bad in Canada."  I don't believe he's ever been to Canada or even talked to a Canadian about it, but he paints this picture of half of Canada coming to the US for their health care because things are so bad in Canada.  I've talked to a lot of Canadians, and never once got a hint from them that this was the case.  But I have heard a lot of very positive things in Canada from Canadians about their healthcare.  From what I can make out, the average Canadian has better health care than us retired folks who qualify for Medicare.  Medicare is pretty good here, but it costs me about $250 to buy insurance that claims to pay the extra amount that Medicare won't cover.

When my cousin complains about his own insurance, he actually hits on the very issues that make our private insurance system so bad.  He hates his private insurer, because it disallows tests he needs, and he has to get special permission to see a different doctor, and clear special cancer treatments with his insurer.  He never complains about Medicare, but he's not willing to change the system because, well, I'm not really sure.  It's like it would be un-American or something.  Of course he hate's Obamacare too, even though he supported basically the same idea when the Republicans pushed it as an alternative to Hillarycare back in the 90s.

[surly74]

My cousin is ultra conservative, and he complained about national healthcare because "it's so bad in Canada."  I don't believe he's ever been to Canada or even talked to a Canadian about it, but he paints this picture of half of Canada coming to the US for their health care because things are so bad in Canada.  I've talked to a lot of Canadians, and never once got a hint from them that this was the case.  But I have heard a lot of very positive things in Canada from Canadians about their healthcare.  From what I can make out, the average Canadian has better health care than us retired folks who qualify for Medicare.  Medicare is pretty good here, but it costs me about $250 to buy insurance that claims to pay the extra amount that Medicare won't cover.

When my cousin complains about his own insurance, he actually hits on the very issues that make our private insurance system so bad.  He hates his private insurer, because it disallows tests he needs, and he has to get special permission to see a different doctor, and clear special cancer treatments with his insurer.  He never complains about Medicare, but he's not willing to change the system because, well, I'm not really sure.  It's like it would be un-American or something.  Of course he hate's Obamacare too, even though he supported basically the same idea when the Republicans pushed it as an alternative to Hillarycare back in the 90s.

it's not a perfect system but I'm happy with it. combine our healthcare with a good employer benefit package and it's really good. The one negative however is a shortage of general family doctors. each province dictates what a doctor can charge to see a patient and that hasn't changed in a number of years so in some areas there are doctor shortages. If a GP went to the area they would most likely have an immediately full roster of patients.

Canadians with money can come to the US for different treatments. If you have a non emergency issue (MRI for example) it could be eight months to wait, or you could go to Buffalo and pay out of pocket. Same for some specialists...big reason is everyone is based on need, not status.

Americans, per capita, pay more in health costs than Canadians. I've had emergency surgery on my knee, hospital stay, follow ups and so on and didn't pay a cent. Three pregnancies by my wife and we got a $35 bill for something in the room...for the last child. With the last one they were giving out ultrasounds like candy. That's part of the waste...no centralized records.

I know if i ever get seriously ill i won't be bankrupted paying for treatment.

[zarus tathra]

Because the education system sucks, and pouring money into it will just make it more like itself than it already is.

Because the government has no workable plan to make healthcare affordable and good.

Because widespread access to guns is the main reason why the West found democracy and the East did not.

[SGOS]

While driving to the store, I got to thinking about this thread.  They only times, other than in this thread, where I have ever the issue of "being more like Europe" has always been a conservative response to any suggested change which they claim will not work and will make things worse.  When you point out that it works in Europe or Canada or wherever, they frequently respond with, "We don't want to be like 'whatever country'."

At first it sounds like a straw man argument, because no one, not even a political talking head, ever says, "We want to be more like 'whatever'."  I've never heard anyone say that.  The comment only comes out when you provide some evidence showing it does work after they claim it won't.

But it's not quite a straw man argument, either.  It's more like reframing the debate onto a non-relevant side-track that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.  It derails the discussion.  My response in the past was to get flummoxed, but I'll be looking forward to hearing that again now that I've thought about what is really going on.

The issue is not that it makes us more like another country.  The issue is whether or not the idea will work, and even more importantly, whether there is data to support it or contradict it.

[Youssuf Ramadan]

I guess for some people a proposal for a change of direction would be tantamount to an admission of failure.

[SGOS]

I guess for some people a proposal for a change of direction would be tantamount to an admission of failure.

Unfortunately, for some people, that's probably all it's about.

[Shiranu]

It's funny because the idea often touted by politicians here when trying to implement more US style policies is "it works in 'Murica".

They haven't wised up to the fact that the majoirty of people here in the UK don't want our state structures to be anything like what they are in the states. I'd happily accept some of the nice Californian weather though.

Correction (to the politicians): It works for RICH Americans and corrupt politicians, not for your average Joe.

[Eric1958]

Health care is a pet peve of mine. When I was 24 I ruptured my appendix and the job I had did not offer health insurance, so it was all on me to pay. I was single then and, though it took a few years I was able to pay the bills off. Then, for 16 years I had a good job that offered good health coverage. I had surgery, my wife had surgery and we had two sons. Insurance covered most of the costs. Then I lost that job and when I got sick a few months ago I ended up in the emergency room 3 times and now have a stack of medical bills I can't hope to pay.

I too have heard from several people who say that Canadians come to the US for their medical needs, but I've never met a Canadian who thought that. A few years ago pbs aired an episode of Frontline, I think it was called "sick around the world" that compared our system to six other industrialized, modern countries. They all had tackled health care in different ways, but in every other county no one was in any danger of declaring bankruptcy the way I am now. And they all had a citizenry that lived, on average, at least as long as we do.

[Jason78]

If not having health insurance could mean a death sentence in America...

Then why the hell don't you all have health insurance?

[Youssuf Ramadan]

If not having health insurance could mean a death sentence in America...

Then why the hell don't you all have health insurance?

Maybe some people can't afford it?....

[SGOS]

It's odd that the Republican talking point against universal health care centered on "Death Panels."  The claim was that some government agency would not allow you access to certain kinds of procedures because they are too expensive.  But actually, this is what private insurance companies now do.  And deaths have resulted, although they are not common.  

Of course "Death Panel" is a gross exaggeration of someone's fear.  But the accusation of Government death panels seems to be a psychological projection of what's wrong with the current system onto another system in an effort to protect the collective ego of less cognizant anti government health care folks.

Medicare beats my employer provided health care by miles and miles.  I no longer have a huge deductible, and so far, I have not been denied coverage for anything.  I wish it provided for medications, but my employer insurance didn't do that either.  I would advocate it for all Americans.

When I retired and was forced to pick up the costs of private insurance, it was not a trifling amount.  In addition to the $5000 yearly costs, I had to pay $2500 out of pocket to meet my deductible, so that was $7500 I had to pay before I ever got to collect a dime.  And now 15 years later, my colleagues tell me the employer insurance where I work is much higher, so I can see the employer mandate as financially devastating to a small company.  And if a catastrophic illness would have struck, the insurer stopped paying after something like $100,000.

As for raising taxes, everyone's big beef, at $7000,  I would be pleased to pay more in taxes if it allowed me to keep more of my income.

[Hydra009]

If not having health insurance could mean a death sentence in America...

Then why the hell don't you all have health insurance?

For the same reason that homeless people don't have homes.  Because they can't afford it, unfortunately.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

You answered you own question.

Religion, Nationalism, and Racism is all under the evil wing of Conservatism and preservation of useless traditions!

Solitary

Be fair, racism has a fair saturation in both parties and both wings.

[Solitary]

True. I never knew there were democratic preservations of radical useless traditions though. Solitary