Author Topic: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"  (Read 4850 times)

Offline Shiranu

"The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« on: July 18, 2013, 12:26:43 AM »
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Taken from NYTimes

Quote


After the deaths of Abdulrahman and Anwar, I filed another lawsuit, seeking answers and accountability. The government has argued once again that its targeted killing program is beyond the reach of the courts. I find it hard to believe that this can be legal in a constitutional democracy based on a system of checks and balances.


A pretty strong piece by the father and grandfather of two American citizens killed by drone strikes... one never formally charged with a crime and the other a victim of collateral damage.

Out of all the things the American government does wrong, I think the drone program might be amongst the most immoral and most destructive to American safety. We have killed thousands of civilians, including Americans, and the "terrorists" we have killed are often never confirmed... they are simply assumed terrorists and executed along with their friends and families.

The United States government is no less of a terrorist organization than Al Qaeda or Hezbollah... we just have enough money and clout to pretend it is holier-than-they when we do it.

Here is the status of his petition to the U.S. gov't for answers, if you are interested...

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Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 09:11:15 AM »
Such is war. There is not and never will be anything moral about war. The planners and strategists of war have almost always been beyond the reach of courts unless it is prosecuting the losers. It's tragic and immoral, but also nothing new.
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Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 10:33:35 AM »
No, the US is not at war with Yemen.  Such is not war.  Such is an extra-judicial killing, a murder.
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Offline AllPurposeAtheist

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 12:02:19 PM »
Lots of countries were never at war when we bombed the shit out of them. Korea, Vietnam, just to drop a name or two..
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Offline Solitary

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 12:04:13 PM »
I think with what is happening war has a different meaning now, however, it is still political as always, and shows the mass insanity of mankind that support them.  :cry:  Solitary
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Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 12:14:37 PM »
...so what are you, us, or anyone gonna do about it?
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Offline Solitary

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 12:19:38 PM »
"Kill all the lawyers!"  :shock:  I don't think there is anything that can be done about. It's been going on for thousands of years and has not changed because of fear, ignorance, and people having power over others to do their bidding.  :cry: Solitary
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Offline Colanth

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2013, 04:20:03 PM »
In previous wars, our soldiers faced their soldiers on the battlefield and had at each other.  In this war, unknown people not in uniform attack us, so we kill people not in uniform.  If they want us to only kill their uniformed soldiers, let them put their soldiers in uniform.  (In previous wars, attacking a soldier if you weren't in the uniform of the enemy brought the death sentence.  In Nam it was quite often carried out with no trial - when you were seen you were shot.)
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Online Hijiri Byakuren

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Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2013, 04:35:09 PM »
This is how my uncle, an army interrogator who served in Afghanistan, saw the whole ordeal (paraphrasing):

"The Islamist extremists want a conflict between Islam and the West. They use the methods they use precisely because they know we have to respond, and that this will have to involve bombing civilians. They want the Muslim world to hate us, because they want all infidels to die. It doesn't matter if moderate Muslims speak out, because their status as Muslims can be used to legitimize the extremist position. If worst comes to worst, they just lynch the moderates and carry on. They don't care about who dies. All they care about is getting their war."

Basically, they're not going to "get into uniform," because making us attack un-uniformed targets is the whole point. The Islamist extremists want conflict, not peace.
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Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2013, 04:48:03 PM »
We could start by stopping our support for deeply unpopular dictatorships that harbour fundamentalist nutcases, or at least make our business dealings with them contingent upon their 'government' acting towards weeding out the leaders of these groups.  Easier said than done, I know, because money talks and bullshit walks.  There are no simple answers, but any journey towards a solution has to start somewhere, otherwise we have no right to complain.  Our countries continue to act the big playground bully with scant regard for the consequences.

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Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 04:51:30 PM »
Quote from: "Youssuf Ramadan"
We could start by stopping our support for deeply unpopular dictatorships that harbour fundamentalist nutcases, or at least make our business dealings with them contingent upon their 'government' acting towards weeding out the leaders of these groups.  Easier said than done, I know, because money talks and bullshit walks.  There are no simple answers, but any journey towards a solution has to start somewhere, otherwise we have no right to complain.  Our countries continue to act the big playground bully with scant regard for the consequences.
I'm not saying there aren't better things we could be doing, but several posters were making it sound like we were doing drone strikes for shits and giggles.
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Offline Shiranu

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 05:02:49 PM »
Not shits and giggles, no... just a completely misguided policy.

And the problem is we intentionally are killing civilians when we don't have to. There is a difference between killing even suspected terrorists and people who look like the might possibly, remotely be somehow maybe be related to some unconfirmed terrorist organization who happens to be in the middle of a crowd of civilians, and then after killing them still not bothering to find out if they were terrorist or just an unlucky chump.

I would have less problem with it (still find it deeply immoral) if we at least made sure our targets were likely terrorists, but we don't even do that. And then we don't allow the families of civilians to prove their deceased's innocence, the fact that they were collateral or even admit it was us who killed them (because you know, every country has drones flying over Pakistan, Yemen...)
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Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2013, 11:30:26 AM »
^^^ yes indeed.

And imagine the shitstorm in the USA if other countries started to pick off its people with drones....

Offline Nonsensei

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2013, 11:42:02 AM »
It seems pretty obvious to me that the drone operators had no idea Abdulrhaman was there. They were targeting someone else and he got caught in the blast, along with apparently a shitload of other people.

But that's hardly a justification. If anything it is a condemnation. First of all they failed to properly identify everyone who would be there. That is just the latest in a long string of intelligence failures. Second, they failed to care that uninvolved people would be killed which is the latest in a long string of humanity failures.

I now feel the Obama administration is every last ounce the failure that the Bush administration was. I am ashamed to say that it was actually the disregard for the rights of American citizens that finally turned the tide for me. Before that, it was very easy to believe that stories like this one were nothing more than one side of unconfirmed events. A year ago I would have believed that this poor grandfather simply didn't know his grandson as well as he thought he did, and the hit was likely legitimate. Now, after seeing how little regard the current administration holds even for its own citizens it is much easier for me to believe that they simply didn't give a damn who died in the attack. And if they didn't give a damn here, chances are they didn't give a damn this whole fucking time. That makes Obama a mass murderer in my eyes.

If Obama were anyone else he would be executed for what he has done. No amount of security is worth this.
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Offline Colanth

Re: "The Drone That Killed My Grandson"
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2013, 03:49:11 PM »
Quote from: "Nonsensei"
First of all they failed to properly identify everyone who would be there. That is just the latest in a long string of intelligence failures. Second, they failed to care that uninvolved people would be killed which is the latest in a long string of humanity failures.
So we can only attack terrorists on a one-on-one basis?  If the terrorist is sitting in a cafe with innocent people he's immune to attack?  Or we have to take him out with a small caliber pistol?

When your enemy chooses to dress like civilians, and always be surrounded by civilians, he has to expect civilian deaths - and accept responsibility for them.  The alternative is for us to roll over and play dead.  This is no longer conventional war, it's a new breed of war, in which civilians will die - probably in larger numbers than combatants.  We didn't choose to fight this way, it was thrust upon us, so we fight or we don't, but we can't fight by only attacking individual enemy personnel.  If that's our only answer, we might as well save American lives by disbanding the armed forces and staying home.
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