Neighbors to the rescue!!

[Shiranu]

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm now actually kinda curious what you think the proper response to the second story you posted would have been?

Are you expecting random bystanders experiencing a seriously traumatic event to act faster than what appears to be a nearby professional security officer? That seems a bit much, don't you think? But even assuming the officer wasn't there, what do you think they should have done in the about 10 seconds that this act probably took?

I mean; I can understand the idea of people trying to help, but this is just a terrible example... there's nothing anyone could've done to save this women if the first sign of trouble is her being stabbed in the back.

Additionally it's pretty well known psychology that, in group settings, people simply do not help. Our mind just doesn't work like that; someone has to (generally) be singled out and forced to help, unless you are lucky and someone who has been trained to deal with shock, high stress situations is present.

It's why if someone is bleeding out on the street, a whole crowd will gather but do nothing; so many people feel they don't know what to do, that someone is better than them for the job is present, etc.. So random tip of the day; if you are bleeding out in public, point or describe specifically one person from the crowd to help you, it forces them to help you or else look like a terrible person infront of the group. And surprisingly, it works.

[aitm]

The proper response? Some here think we shouldn't even follow a would be thief down the street, preferring to lock the door, call the cops and once the guy is out of site its someone else's problem. How can we expect anyone to exhibit the courage to stop a rape or help prevent a murder?

We all might think we know what we would do in certain situations. Some of us are a bit more..er.....adventurous than others and have acted. Everyday across the world humans exhibit courage and selflessness to help total strangers, some die in the attempt, it is in my opinion that this is what makes the human a grand creature. Why people would suggest that we curtail that response, temper it, hide it, bury it, forget about it is beyond me. That trait itself is the very backbone of the human history.

Now we suggest that we wait for someone more trained in certain situations because well, lets face it, if someone else can do it and I don't have to show that I am just to frightened to help, I will use the excuse that someone else should do it and come up with a litany of more excuses to justify it.  And since a lot of people seem to do this in situations we can all point to those situations and say, "see, thats what they did and they must be right because thats what people do."

No. I will always argue for action, even at the risks involved because "no action" tears more of the social fabric that binds us until no one will help at all.

[Shiranu]

Some here think we shouldn't even follow a would be thief down the street, preferring to lock the door, call the cops and once the guy is out of site its someone else's problem. How can we expect anyone to exhibit the courage to stop a rape or help prevent a murder?

Weird, I have yet to see anyone argue that. Oh well...

[Johan]

Some here think we shouldn't even follow a would be thief down the street, preferring to lock the door, call the cops and once the guy is out of site its someone else's problem.

I'm curious to know how exactly one identifies a would be thief. Or do you just follow everyone whom you don't know personally?

No. I will always argue for action, even at the risks involved because "no action" tears more of the social fabric that binds us until no one will help at all.

Tears more of the social fabric? Really? Drama much? But I get that you're all manly and willing to take risk in order to save society and we know it and all that. But what about when those risks brought about by your actions are incurred by others instead of by you? Is that just the price we have to pay so that you can see to it that the social fabric goes untorn?

[Jack89]

Additionally it's pretty well known psychology that, in group settings, people simply do not help. Our mind just doesn't work like that; someone has to (generally) be singled out and forced to help, unless you are lucky and someone who has been trained to deal with shock, high stress situations is present.

It's why if someone is bleeding out on the street, a whole crowd will gather but do nothing; so many people feel they don't know what to do, that someone is better than them for the job is present, etc.. So random tip of the day; if you are bleeding out in public, point or describe specifically one person from the crowd to help you, it forces them to help you or else look like a terrible person infront of the group. And surprisingly, it works.

Don't know where you heard that, but that's not what I've experienced.  I've done some civilian EMS work and it was pretty common to see people helping when we arrived on scene. I've also done some humanitarian relief work and with just a little encouragement and direction people are more than willing to help out, and happy to do so.  In fact, I've seen people who were pretty lackluster and average shine in crisis situations, like they just needed a reason to be awesome.  Yes, military and other professional types will usually jump in and make themselves useful during a crisis, but they're conditioned to, so I guess that doesn't really count.  But I'll tell you what, everyone feels fucking amazing when they make a difference.  Why do you think that is?

Most people naturally empathize with others in a crisis and want to help if they can.  It's called compassion and that's how people think.  I think most who don't are usually too scared to do what they know they should do, or don't know what to do, and feel like shit when they think about it later on.  I can think of a couple of times when I was younger when I don't think I did enough, and I still feel guilty about it.  Hell, even when you do everything you possibly can and someone dies on you, you feel terrible and you never forget it.  But when you save someone... Holy shit that's a good feeling.  Perhaps that's a good indication of what people should do.

I don't know what to say about those people who really don't care, other than I truly pity them.

[Shiranu]

I obviously cant link you to what we learned in class, but this was both in Psychology and in an article I had previously seen. I will look for the second one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

The bystander effect is a social psychological phenomenon that refers to cases in which individuals do not offer any means of help to a victim when other people are present. The probability of help is inversely related to the number of bystanders. In other words, the greater the number of bystanders, the less likely it is that any one of them will help. Several variables help to explain why the bystander effect occurs. These variables include: ambiguity, cohesiveness and diffusion of responsibility.

A bit dated, but here is one video on it...

[youtube:2cvib59u]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSsPfbup0ac[/youtube:2cvib59u]

Now, no one saw him injured so I am not sure how that play's into the equation; perhaps actively witnessing the act helps kick people into action. I would also assume there are some differences between location (big city vs small city) and other things.

That said, group dynamics are very... interesting, for lack of a better word. It doesn't mean people are bad people, it doesn't mean people don't care, it just means our brains are not very well designed pieces of machinery and sometimes don't work the way we would expect them to.

[Jack89]

That's just sad.  I would guess your assumptions about big cities is probably correct.

[Plu]

The proper response? Some here think we shouldn't even follow a would be thief down the street, preferring to lock the door, call the cops and once the guy is out of site its someone else's problem. How can we expect anyone to exhibit the courage to stop a rape or help prevent a murder?

Excuses, but no answers. What did you expect people to do in the specific case you mentioned, where you were of the impression that people should help? How could anyone have prevented this murder from happening?

Don't know where you heard that, but that's not what I've experienced. I've done some civilian EMS work and it was pretty common to see people helping when we arrived on scene.

Those are usually people with some experience in emergency care, they're trained to ignore the bystander  effect and get to work. I know a few of them, they always jump right on situations where needed, but everyone else just stands around because they aren't sure what to do.

I've also done some humanitarian relief work and with just a little encouragement and direction people are more than willing to help out, and happy to do so.

A little encouragement and direction are indeed just what people need to break the spell of the bystander effect. You only need one guy who takes charge and directs people to make them snap out of it and help, but if there's nobody willing to be that one guy, nothing happens.

Also, the bystander effect usually doesn't happen in smaller communities, because it requires you to not know the victim and be in a large group; as soon as someone familiar with the victim shows up they will most likely try to help. That's why it's mostly a big-city thing.

[Colanth]

Yes, I would most definitely want someone to help me if I was getting my ass kicked.

By someone you had threatened?

"He hit me BACK, so I had to kill him."

If you start something, you should accept the responsibility for starting it, not ask for help to make it worse.

Now you're changing the "what if" mid stream to try to support your position.  Kind of dishonest.

What change?  Zimmerman caused the initial threat.  He even admitted it - he, a white man, followed Martin, a black teen-ager, in a truck.  That, in the eyes of a black teen-ager in the south, is a potential threat.  That Zimmerman may not have understood that he constituted a threat in Martin's mind isn't Martin's fault.  Martin reacted to what he probably considered a clear and present danger - his right in any state, and especially one with a stand your ground law.

[Colanth]

I'm not reading anywhere in the article that it was the same "young black man". They probably would've mentioned it if it was the same kid, don't you think? Which leads me to believe it was probably some other person.

my apologies, by "perfect match" I would assume a young black male similar to another young black male would fit the description of the recent sightings more than say, a young black male to a overweight 80 yr old white man wouldn't you think so?

I have no reason to believe one young black male would look similar to another young black male. Nor do I have any reason to believe that because the first young black male was arrested, there's any reason to believe that the second young black male, even if he does look a bit like him, is also up to no good, just because he looks like the other guy.

This is almost starting to sound racist.

It's not "beginning to sound racist", it's a textbook case of racial profiling.  If the perpetrator is a young black male, young black males are suspects.  (They tried something like that in New England, Boston, I think, and most people were outraged.)  If the perpetrator had been a young white male, and a black adult shot another young white male, and made the claim that he was a perfect match - because he's young, male, white and wearing a hoodie (those were the matching elements) - everyone would be howling "racism".

[Shiranu]

He even admitted it - he, a white man...

Just to interrupt, and I agree with the rest of your last post and this one, but Zimmerman is 3/4ths Latino, not white.

Which doesn't really change anything because Latino's can be racist as well. Racism isn't just an issue plaguing the white/black communities...

[aitm]

If the perpetrator is a young black male, young black males are suspects.

yeah, that would be stupid because everyone knows that if a black male is a suspect then we should check out the white guys.

"HEY TSA, I got a job applicant for you"

[Shiranu]

If the perpetrator is a young black male, young black males are suspects.

yeah, that would be stupid because everyone knows that if a black male is a suspect then we should check out the white guys.

"HEY TSA, I got a job applicant for you"

Sorry, but if you are profiling people based on their race... that is racial profiling. You can make excuses for it all you want, but... there is just no way you can argue that it's not racial profiling.

If the EXACT SAME events happened in a black neighbourhood to a white kid, and the black shooter said, "Hey, there have been white kids committing crimes here lately!"... you really think anyone would even think about saying, "But it's okay, because he only stalked the kid because he was white!". Hell no.

[aitm]

If the perpetrator is a young black male, young black males are suspects.

yeah, that would be stupid because everyone knows that if a black male is a suspect then we should check out the white guys.

"HEY TSA, I got a job applicant for you"

Sorry, but if you are profiling people based on their race... that is racial profiling. You can make excuses for it all you want, but... there is just no way you can argue that it's not racial profiling.

well if you're looking at black males when a white one is the suspect we call that stupid....a special kind of stupid.

[Shiranu]

I'm sorry, but I don't want people to say... "There is an olive skinned person in my neighbourhood... I should therefor stalk him because someone else with a similar skin colour to him committed a crime before!", and I don't think you want people to say the same to you.

I don't believe in treating people like criminals because they have a different skin colour than me, and I don't think people of other races want to be discriminated against either because they have a darker skin tone than me. People should be treated like criminals for committing a crime, not because they have dark skin or their last name is Mohammad. That is bluntly racist, no matter what excuses one wants to make for it.