Neighbors to the rescue!!

[aitm]

I have no reason to believe one young black male would look similar to another young black male.

Operator: 911, what is your emergency
Caller: Uh yeah, there is a lone cat walking down the along the sidewalk near some houses.
Operator: A cat? Sir? Did you say a cat?
Caller: yes, the last few days we have had some stray dogs chasing people and growling at them so I wanted to report this cat.
Operator: Sir I am not following you. You said you had some dogs threatening people but your calling about a cat?
Caller: Yes, I don't want to appear to be a racist.

 :roll:

[Plu]

Are you implying that all young black males are automatically suspicious, because some young black males have been caught performing illegal actions? Because that's very much what it sounds like, and your latest response isn't helping.

[Jack89]

Since you avoided my question, I'll give you my answer to it. Yes, I would most definitely want someone to help me if I was getting my ass kicked. Who wouldn't? And since I think it would be right for someone to help me, how can I not think it right for me to reciprocate in kind? Especially if the victim appears to be innocent, whether it's me or someone else.

I don't consider it avoiding the question. My wants, in a situation where someone else who doesn't know me is supposed to put his life in danger, are pretty much irrelevant. I want people to be rational and not go and get themselves killed trying to be the hero.

And I'm willing to accept the consequences for that.

I'm trying to understand you position on this because you seem sincere, but I'm having trouble following your reasoning.  Maybe it's a cultural thing, or the difference between being raised in and urban rather than a rural community.  I don't know, but it seems pretty rational to want help if your in trouble, and it makes a lot of sense for people to help others who are in trouble.  
I agree that people should be aware of their limitations and respond accordingly, but to say you shouldn't try because you might get hurt, or because you're not a "professional" is a cop-out in my book, and irrational at a community level.  If you advocate inaction, aren't you promoting apathy and indifference?  Aren't you just welcoming more problems in your community if it's known that people in it are indifferent and won't take action?

Personally I want to live in a community where people look out for each other and help out to the best of their abilities.  I want to know that my neighbors will help in an emergency and not just sit back and wait for emergency services to arrive.  The 2 young men in the OP's post are a good example of what i'm advocating.  It was a bit risky chasing that car on their bicycles, but by doing so, they may have saved that little girls life, or maybe not.  Who knows?  But, by demonstrating that they were willing to do so is in itself a plus for their community.  They're showing that the neighborhood is being watch and they may have just influenced others to take a more active role.  I certainly know that if others are looking out for me, I'll feel an obligation, a duty, to look after them.

I don't see that type of involvement as being heroic, I see it as being a good person.  To be honest, I think your view that others shouldn't jump in to help you because they might get hurt or killed, is unnecessarily heroic.  Self-sacrifice is certainly noble, but not too smart if it can be avoided.  Something else to consider, if people in your neighborhood are prone to get involved, there may be more than one person helping out.

[Plu]

I'm not advocating inaction, I'm advocating very careful action. There is probably not a very large difference between our positions except I consider myself (and other people) a lot less capable than you do. If I see a kid beating up ather kid, I'll step in. If I see a grown man beating up another grown man, I'm not going to step in because I don't consider myself capable of taking on a grown man, which means I'll only increase the number of people that get beaten up. And if both are still up and standing, then getting involved either means picking sides (which is dangerous because you have no idea what's going on) or trying to break them up (which basically means now you're now standing between two angry men, and is thus also dangerous)

It might also just be that you'd be willing to help if there's a 50/50 chance while I would consider anything under 90/10 chance of success to be an unwise idea. And while rationally speaking I'd want help when I'm in trouble, it doesn't mean that any random dude jumping in and getting involved is actually going to help me. It might just make matters worse. So unless that person is damn sure that he's going to be able to solve the problem, I'd rather he didn't try. And it also wouldn't make me feel any better if the person jumping in got himself killed or hurt.

The kids in the opening article did alright. They followed behind a guy in a car, but they didn't confront him, they didn't follow him into shady areas, and we can't know what they'd have done if he turned around. But it's very easy to go from "following him around heroically" to "following him into a dark alley and getting shot".

I've seen enough newspaper articles to the gist of "boy jumps into pond trying to save drowning kid. Both will be buried next week." to be advocating people jumping in unless they really know what they're doing.

[Johan]

Personally I want to live in a community where people look out for each other and help out to the best of their abilities.  I want to know that my neighbors will help in an emergency and not just sit back and wait for emergency services to arrive.  

You'd probably like living in Plainfield, NJ then. Citizens there like to do exactly what you're talking about. When a couple of people saw a robbery in progress they jumped in and captured the guy. And also let the prostitute who was trying to rob him get away with what she took from him.
//http://www.baltimoresun.com/topic/wpix-female-thief-foils-good-samaritans,0,4538572.story
Hey but they were only trying to help so what's the harm right? It makes the community better and that's what's important.



Here's a guy who stopped an attack on a woman.
//http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/14/local/la-me--toddler-shot-20110914
Sure his 3 year old is dead now but I'd bet he'd tell you he'd do it again because it makes the community better that's what important.

[aitm]

Oh boy! We get to troll the net looking for shit to bolster our arguments!

Looky here! This is the community you want to live in!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwxiCVVGnZ8

And more, this should make your chest stick out in pride at the in-action of your fellow citizens..

http://newsok.com/dozens-of-witnesses-w ... le/3658191

Yessir, you and your "kind" make me proud of humanity.

[Plu]

The first is problematic. A dozen bystanders over a prolonged time not acting is bad enough, but not reporting it pushes it far into "nobody in this thread is ok with this" levels. That should have been a group intervention, and even I would've gotten involved, because it's a no-risk situation if you're 12 to 2.

The second on the other hand is not very surprising. If the first sign of something happening is the sound of screams, blood gushing and someone lying on the ground being stabbed repeatedly, then everyone's first action should be "what the fuck" and by the time they get to their senses, the victim is dead and the situation is over. I don't blame anyone for that one. (except the guy with the knife, obviously.)

Also, none of these stories would be any better if they added "heroic bystander also stabbed to death". If you're going to intervene... make sure you're safe before you do it. Go in as a group. Don't attack the guy(s). Corner them. Call the authorities. It's what any kind of respectable emergency service worker should also tell you... because it's the best way to intervene in these situations.

[aitm]

Let us all hope we get to live in our respective chosen neighborhoods.

[Plu]

Giving up? :)

[aitm]

Giving up? :)

how much more beating can we give this dead horse? :rollin:

[Plu]

As long as there's arguments and stories and stuff... plenty. I'm not yet convinced that there's simply two sides that are equally valid, like with some of the other debates that keep popping up here.

[Jack89]

Here's someone I wouldn't mind having as a neighbor.  I like this guy's attitude.

[youtube:1h5mddff]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vI1LSGgi4D8[/youtube:1h5mddff]

[Johan]

Let us all hope we get to live in our respective chosen neighborhoods.

I suspect that every neighborhood has its share of people who think like me as well as people who think like you. Having more or less of one type is not what is going make any neighborhood great or rotten.

[Plu]

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm now actually kinda curious what you think the proper response to the second story you posted would have been?

Are you expecting random bystanders experiencing a seriously traumatic event to act faster than what appears to be a nearby professional security officer? That seems a bit much, don't you think? But even assuming the officer wasn't there, what do you think they should have done in the about 10 seconds that this act probably took?

I mean; I can understand the idea of people trying to help, but this is just a terrible example... there's nothing anyone could've done to save this women if the first sign of trouble is her being stabbed in the back.

[Shiranu]

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm now actually kinda curious what you think the proper response to the second story you posted would have been?

Are you expecting random bystanders experiencing a seriously traumatic event to act faster than what appears to be a nearby professional security officer? That seems a bit much, don't you think? But even assuming the officer wasn't there, what do you think they should have done in the about 10 seconds that this act probably took?

I mean; I can understand the idea of people trying to help, but this is just a terrible example... there's nothing anyone could've done to save this women if the first sign of trouble is her being stabbed in the back.

Additionally it's pretty well known psychology that, in group settings, people simply do not help. Our mind just doesn't work like that; someone has to (generally) be singled out and forced to help, unless you are lucky and someone who has been trained to deal with shock, high stress situations is present.

It's why if someone is bleeding out on the street, a whole crowd will gather but do nothing; so many people feel they don't know what to do, that someone is better than them for the job is present, etc.. So random tip of the day; if you are bleeding out in public, point or describe specifically one person from the crowd to help you, it forces them to help you or else look like a terrible person infront of the group. And surprisingly, it works.