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Started by AlwaysLearning, July 15, 2013, 11:38:22 AM

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Hijiri Byakuren

Quote from: "stromboli"As opposed to religion, which begins with the unprovable assumption that a God breathed life into a lump of clay to form life; based on "teachings" from late Neolithic, Copper and Bronze Age myths.
To be fair, the Bible doesn't say that. It says he took a neverending ocean, suspended half of it on a firmament, tossed in some dirt to make cool shapes in the water, and then breathed life onto it.
Speak when you have something to say, not when you have to say something.

Sargon The Grape - My Youtube Channel

mykcob4

Quote from: "AlwaysLearning"Good Morning All!

Glad to be back :-D

Now, I'll address the whole LU thing quickly: //http://www.sacscoc.org/ click on the link, there's a map to the right, click on VA and Liberty will be in there. LU is in the same accreditation association as schools like Texas A&M, University of Florida, and Rice University (to name a few). So, it's legitimately accredited. Also, the name Lynchburg actually came from the last name of the man who founded the city (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynchburg,_Virginia), John Lynch whose last name originally meant "hill" (//http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_(surname)) but, I don't really care about all that. The only reason I really bring it up is to point out that little research was done to make such a strong claim. I expect more than that from such smart people; try to not let emotions get to you, do some research first. As far as "brainwashing" goes, I would argue that the point of any University is "brainwashing". However, if you know that going into it then you can better guard yourself against what and how they teach you. I have in fact seen the biases of LU in my studies here, but have remained true to my own thoughts and ideas, a free thinker if you will; doing my own research on some of the things they teach. I told you before not to hold me to their beliefs and I meant it, but I am finished with that.

Do I believe that all gods in the past were real?

The question is rather vague, but I'll do my best! First, it depends on how you define a "god"; if you mean something that is worshipped and given praise to, then yes. There are, and have been, TONS of those! People would (and still do) worship trees, animals, stars, music, and even other people. By this simple definition almost anything can be made a "god" and it is indeed very real to the person worshipping it (and to the observer who sees the reality of it in the actions of the worshipper). If by "god" you mean a spiritual being that plays an active role in being worshipped, then also yes. It is claimed that there are spiritual beings that God made, commonly known as angels and demons, but I beg you not to allow yourself to be influenced by the cultural understanding of angels and demons, because that it not a true or reliable depiction of what they truly are. I don't want to go into great detail trying to explain it, but I will mention a couple of things for the sake of understanding. First, angels and demons are the exact same thing; but, some serve God and others serve satan. That is the only difference (to my current knowledge). Second, with the first point in mind, the whole goal of satan, and thus his servants (demons), is to keep us from knowing God; so, they distract us, sometimes in the form of "gods" to be worshipped. They are indeed very real. However, there is only one God; who created (and is still creating) the universe and everything in it. HE is the only true and real God that I call King and Father.

Do I have any questions for atheists?

Yes! A lot! Here's a few:
What do you know about hermeneutics?
What do think about relativism?
How do you explain the beginning of life?

And when I ask these questions, I really want to know what you think, with explanation and not just a whole bunch of flaming. I'd love to share my own opinions and conclusions if you'd like to know :)
1. The Beginnings of Hermeneutics
The term hermeneutics, a Latinized version of the Greek hermeneutice, has been part of common language from the beginning of the 17th century. Nevertheless, its history stretches back to ancient philosophy. Addressing the understanding of religious intuitions, Plato used this term in a number of dialogues, contrasting hermeneutic knowledge to that of sophia. Religious knowledge is a knowledge of what has been revealed or said and does not, like sophia, involve knowledge of the truth-value of the utterance. Aristotle carried this use of the term a step further, naming his work on logic and semantics Peri hermeneias, which was later rendered as De interpretatione. Only with the Stoics, and their reflections on the interpretation of myth, do we encounter something like a methodological awareness of the problems of textual understanding.

2.http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/
3) No one has the answer to your 3rd question least of all christians. Christians have an assumption that is based on NOTHING!
You'd better check those credentials again. If you are counting on putting your degree and where it is from on your resume.
Lynchburg is named after john lynch huh? Funny how there is a plethera of Lynchburgs in the south and none in the north. Try again goofball.

the_antithesis

Quote from: "FrankDK"Because theists don't seem to be able to agree on the characteristics of their gods, while atheists do.

If you ask a chemist in India about the qualities of oxygen, he would say something like, "It's an odorless, colorless gas that supports combustion.  Atomic number eight, atomic weight sixteen," etc.  If you ask a chemist in Indiana the same question, you will get essentially the same answer.  That indicates there is something to this "oxygen thing."  That is, it's a real thing with real properties that actually exists.

Except when I pose that question to a theist, I really don't care about the nature of god, but am trying to get the theist to examine what it is that they claim to believe. I used to be a theist until I actually gave it some thought. So I try to get theist to think.

Solitary

QuoteDo I believe that all gods in the past were real?

The question is rather vague

How is the question vague? It's a very simple question. And why is asking if you believe in God isn't? So you believe other gods existed, so why do you only pick the Christian-Judeo-Islamic God to worship? Better yet---Why do you have a need or desire to believe in God? And please, no vague answers. You are starting to sound like a troll, you don't want to do that. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

FrankDK

> Do I have any questions for atheists?

> Yes! A lot!

Great.  Questions are the start of the path to knowledge.

> Here's a few:

> What do you know about hermeneutics?

Basically synonymous with exegesis.  If I were a god, I could write a book that didn't need interpretation, didn't start wars, and couldn't be used as the basis for systematic persecution of groups of people.  The existence of hermeneutics proves that the Bible and all other religious texts were not divinely inspired.
 
> What do think about relativism?

As compared to what?

> How do you explain the beginning of life?

I assume you mean abiogenesis.  Stromboli provided some good information on it.  I suggest you Google "abiogenesis" and read what you get.  Another writer (sorry, I forget who) said that he, personally, didn't explain the beginning of life, which is pretty salient.  We have this process called science, and people who work in various fields do experiments and discover things.  Those of us who don't work in those fields rely on the self-correcting process of science to provide ever more accurate answers to the questions of life, the universe, and everything.  The fact that the computer you are using works proves that science works.

The short answer is, we don't know for sure at this time how life originated.  That doesn't mean, however, that "God did it."  It wasn't that long ago in our human history that we didn't know what caused lightning.  When lightning rods were first used, Christians protested that it was against the will of God, because it defeated his lightning bolts.  Other people believed lightning was sparks from Thor's hammer.  It wasn't until the 20th Century that we understood what made the sun shine.  Every decade, the total of human knowledge roughly doubles.

How do you explain the fact that all the sick children in the world weren't cured overnight?

Frank

FrankDK

> Except when I pose that question to a theist, I really don't care about the nature of god, but am trying to get the theist to examine what it is that they claim to believe. I used to be a theist until I actually gave it some thought.

Same here.

> So I try to get theist to think.

And asking why an omnipotent god needs money every Sunday should help make people think.

Do you get the joke now?

Frank

AlwaysLearning

Hey everyone! Sorry for the delay; you've given me lots to think about! This has seriously been a humbling experience so far; thank you all so much!  :-D I will try to reply back later this afternoon/evening, but no promises; grocery shopping and lots of course work to do!

Solitary,

I am very sorry. I did not intend to sound like a troll; that is certainly not my intention. When I said it was a vague question, it was an opinion; from my point of view it seemed vague. I wasn't sure what you meant by "gods", "past", or "were real", and so I wasn't exactly sure how to answer the question appropriately. It was a simple question, I agree, but it could have insinuated a bit more, and because I don't know you very well, I wasn't sure what exactly you were asking. Again, I am very sorry; can you forgive me? Hopefully I get to know you (and everyone else) a lot more through this process!

Much love everyone! Talk to yall later  :heart:

Solitary

Quote from: "AlwaysLearning"Hey everyone! Sorry for the delay; you've given me lots to think about! This has seriously been a humbling experience so far; thank you all so much!  :-D I will try to reply back later this afternoon/evening, but no promises; grocery shopping and lots of course work to do!

Solitary,

I am very sorry. I did not intend to sound like a troll; that is certainly not my intention. When I said it was a vague question, it was an opinion; from my point of view it seemed vague. I wasn't sure what you meant by "gods", "past", or "were real", and so I wasn't exactly sure how to answer the question appropriately. It was a simple question, I agree, but it could have insinuated a bit more, and because I don't know you very well, I wasn't sure what exactly you were asking. Again, I am very sorry; can you forgive me? Hopefully I get to know you (and everyone else) a lot more through this process!

Much love everyone! Talk to yall later  :heart:

You're forgiven!  :-D  Feel better now? Who were the gods that God was talking to in the Garden Of Eden when He expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden? Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Eric1958

Hello there, welcome to the forum. I haven't been here long myself. I was raised to be a Christian. My dad was 7th day adventist and my mom is still Lutheran. I had my choice of going to church on Saturday or Sunday. Some of the people I've admired most have been religious (not always christian).

As for me, I'm an atheist. I've seen too many religions that insist that you either you believe their way or you spend eternity in hell. Too many that insist that whatever science teaches must be wrong if it conflicts with their holy book. Too many that teach us that logical thought or a well reasoned argument are just the devil's way of seducing you away from God.

If there is a god who wants to put me in hell for using the brain she gave me to come to my own conclusions about what to believe, so be it. At least I figure I'll have lots of good company down there.

aitm

It's beyond me why anyone with a uterus would want anything to do with any of todays predominant religions considering how women are treat no better than a favored goat.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Solitary

Quoteshe gave


 :shock:   [-X  sacrilege!  :twisted:  He'll be waiting for you.  :lol:  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

AlwaysLearning

Frank,
Good point about hermeneutics. I often wonder myself why God doesn't just show up in the sky or some obvious way, and then all of this wondering and doubting would be taken care of. But I don't agree that the existence of hermeneutics proves that they were not divinely inspired. Could it not be true that something can be divinely inspired but written with imperfect, constantly changing, HUMAN INSPIRED words or language? Just because the form the inspiration was written in is flawed doesn't necessarily prove that the divine inspiration is flawed. At least that's what I think. It's kind of like me trying to jump in the middle of a book on quantum mechanics and thinking that I'll understand it or be able to rewrite it in another language. If I don't take the time to understand what the book is really talking about then my understanding of it might be flawed.
I'll Google "abiogenesis" before long! Thanks for the suggestion. It's interesting that we don't know the origin of life, I wonder if we will one day! It made me chuckle that christians used to think that lightning rods "defeated" God's lightning bolts. How silly of them. So called christians have gotten themselves in a lot of trouble always being afraid of change and science. We've often made a mess of things and made God look foolish because of the things we say and do, and I am sure that will never change on this earth because of a lack of really knowing who God is and what His heart is. I heard this saying a while ago "People know more about what christians are against rather than what they are for."  It's sad and true; people think we hate gays, think that science is fake, and that anyone who doesn't believe in God is an idiot...and it's just not true. For once I'd like to show people the heart of my God.
As for the unhealed sick children, God weeps for them and I am sure that His heart is burdened with sorrow. I am unsure why He doesn't just heal us all immediately; maybe it's because when we decided to eat that fruit, sin enter in and its' consequence was sickness and death; or maybe it's because even if He did, there would still be those who would choose not to believe in Him or they would attribute it to something else. What benefit would that be? Sure, they would be healed and live, but they would still not have life. But who really knows.

Solitary,
Thank you for forgiving me! And if you're talking about verse 22 of chapter 3, then He isn't talking to other "gods", but Himself. The "us" is a kingly we, if you will. I'm sure you've heard of the trinity where God is three distinct persons but they are all one. This is confusing, but think of it like this; if God were in human form He would be Jesus, and if God were in spirit form He would be the Holy Spirit, and then God is just God...the same yet different.

Aitm,
Women are actually quite loved by God (at least the God I know). A good wife is considered far more precious than rubies, and women are considered wise, kind, helpful, and loving. I like to joke that God made us second so He made us a little better tehe  :wink:

PickelledEggs

Welcome!  :-D

QuoteI used to be an atheist
I always thought once your faith goes lack, you don't go back... So I guess that will be my question.

What caused you to believe (re-believe) a faith?

Quote from: "Harbinger"Married. That won't stop aitm.
:rollin:

AlwaysLearning

PickledEggs...I didn't have faith to start with. I may have said at one point that I was a Christian but I sure didn't know why. What made me believe? I saw love, hope, and life that I had never seen in people before, I heard the testimony of a man who's story moved me and I just couldn't deny the existence of God in his life, and I just couldn't help but fall in love with a God who loved me so deeply even though I denied His very existence. To summarize: love is what really caused me to believe and have faith in God. Sure, maybe not reason but what reason is there in believing in a God that loves you even if you hate Him?! You're crazy to believe in such a God but you're just as crazy if you don't.

Mermaid

Hi Stephanie. Nice to meet you.  :)
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR