Texas House OK's abortion bill; Senate up next

[Brian37]

So if the doctor and the girl consider it okay, they should be able to do a 36th week abortion?

Look, even as an atheist left-libertarian I don't think there's a good reason for aborting a 36-week fetus unless birthing it would endanger the woman's life. I think most reasonable people will agree that this probably viable fetus could be given in adoption to another entity and it would cause no more harm to the mother. But the reality is that this is not what the abortion debate ends up being.

Bullshit, terminal medical problems already in the fetus, or threat to the life of the mother, rape and incest. Those things don't cease to be potential problems because of an arbitrary timeline. Not to mention it is not your body and you are not going to raise the kid. And there has never been enough people who adopt in any case, even if there are lots who will.

Being pro birth does not make you pro quality of life, either for the mother or fetus.

A girl or women, who choses an abortion IS NOT doing it to throw a fucking party, and by no means should such a decision be taken lightly. But such life impacting decisions EITHER way, can only be CASE BY CASE, nothing else.

You try to make sweeping invasive laws like this you are going to do nothing but endanger girls/women. The only two people who should be involved in this decision are the girl/women and doctor, NOT YOU NOT ME.

Keep your fucking nose off of a body you don't own. PERIOD!

[Plu]

Getting emotional and angry doesn't help you make a case.

[surly74]

Bullshit, terminal medical problems already in the fetus, or threat to the life of the mother, rape and incest. Those things don't cease to be potential problems because of an arbitrary timeline. Not to mention it is not your body and you are not going to raise the kid. And there has never been enough people who adopt in any case, even if there are lots who will.

what if the father is willing to raise the kid?

[Brian37]

Getting emotional and angry doesn't help you make a case.

For who?

How many times do I have to say "You are not a doctor"
How many times do I have to say "Problems with the fetus and mother do not stop because of lawmakers"
How many times do I have to say "pro birth does not equate to pro quality of life"
How many times do I have to say "This can only be case by case"

Turning back the clock on 40 years of Supreme Court law will do nothing but harm girls/women. Not help them.

Damned right I am emotional about this. These same fuckwads who cry about "big government" are becoming the "Big Brother" they say they don't want and the best way to undermine progress is to attack women's rights.

This has nothing to do with the viability of life. The abortion issue is simply one more issue rich white men use to divide the middle class and working poor to distract them from the fact the cost of living is exploding, and allows them to continue the race for slave wages.

They could give a fuck less who gets screwed or the quality of life after birth.

Now I will say this as calmly as I can.

There is no practical way to make blanket solutions to a complex issue. The best way to deal with something that no girl/women, wants, is to leave the issue between them and their doctor.

[Plu]

So I'll ask again: if the girl and the doctor agree, you would want a 36th week abortion allowable? That's perfectly in line with your argument so far. Either you agree that this is acceptable, or you're leaving out information which is obfuscating your position.

[Seabear]

Good thing hyperbole is free.

[Plu]

I have absolutely no idea what Brian's position is supposed to be. He's acting emotional and throwing out incomplete statements, from which I cannot form a reliable position on the situation. "It should be between the girl and the doctor, period" is what he says. My question is in line with that. If he doesn't agree with it, then he hasn't fully explained his position, which would probably explain why it comes across as extremely radical when in reality it probably isn't.

There's probably a reasonable position in there, but until it comes out, it's kinda hard to talk about this whole issue. I'm kinda tired of just filling in all the blanks myself and then 15 pages in finding out that because someone didn't mention something the whole discussion so far has been pointless. So I'd like to know exactly where Brian stands before I start throwing out all manner of counter arguments.

[Brian37]

DAMN IT

YES I AM EMOTIONAL SO THE FUCK WHAT!

Now someone please explain to me how medical problems magically cease because of an arbitrary time law?

Can anyone guarantee the health of the mother or fetus, in every single case, if you want to use force of law?

Can anyone here promise that every baby born is going to be wanted or healthy and have a good life after birth?

If you cannot answer those questions, then my advice is once again, the best people to decide that are the person who is pregnant and the doctor. No one else.

Abortion in every single case can only be case by case. And if you are not in it as the pregnant girl/woman, or the doctor, you need to stay the fuck out of it.

[surly74]

[Plu]

So basically what I seem to be able to deduce from your post is that you think there should be exceptions for when the mother or child are in life threatening danger? And that there shouldn't be a blanket law that says "to here and no further"?

Because that's something completely different from "there should be no laws regarding abortions at all". If you discard all abortion laws and consider it all legal as long as the mother and the doctor agree, you realise that it would be legal to abort babies in the 36th week. One of the reasons that abortion laws exist in the first place to prevent that kind of thing.

Current abortion laws might not work where you live, and are a complicated issue, but getting rid of all of them will introduce a host of new terrible situations. That doesn't sound like a very good final solution. And when you calm down you should think about some of the horrors that will happen when you allow abortions, no questions asked. Then you'll see why that is probably not the best solution either.

[Seabear]

YES I AM EMOTIONAL SO THE FUCK WHAT!

I was just noting a pattern in the tone of your replies.

[Brian37]

[ Image ]

Assholes who are not doctors, that is what I am yelling about.

Life is not a utopia. The fact that abortions happen no one likes or sets out to get pregnant just to have one.

This has everything to do with using social issues to divide society, and nothing to do with any pragmatic laws that could actually work.

Medical threats can and do happen throughout the entire pregnancy. Quality of life after birth is just as important as the health of the mother and fetus before birth.

You cannot pragmatically make sweeping laws on an issue that can only  be decided medically case by case.

Now the other issue people don't want to consider is this.

Ok, lets say you get a ban on abortion after a certain time. What should be the punishment of 14 or 15 year old girl who gets one illegally after that time frame? Murder? Manslaughter? What punishment should we give them?

[Hydra009]

I am also against arbitrary, blanket abortion laws.  I am also concerned that this latest legislation may lay the groundwork for making abortion functionally illegal through a series of piecemeal measures.

[Brian37]

YES I AM EMOTIONAL SO THE FUCK WHAT!

I was just noting a pattern in the tone of your replies.

I think "fuck you" to people who are not doctors, is a perfectly reasonable response. Just like "fuck you" the earth is not flat.

Girls/women will be in more danger because of such arbitrary legislation.

[hillbillyatheist]

in an ideal world we'd have practical solutions to these issues.
unfortunately in the real world, we have one group who is bound and determined to force women back to the back alleys and coat hangers, and even trying to ban the pill again, vs another who may not suport yours or my ideals, but clearly are the better options, yeah thats who I'm siding with.


I too prefer no abortions for viable fetuses unless there's a medical reason.
but given the choices we face in the real world, thats a moot point.