Author Topic: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?  (Read 4082 times)

Offline Solitary

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2013, 02:31:03 PM »
You can't argue using logic with believers because if you could they wouldn't be believers. They are believers because they rationalize any argument to support their magical thinking and superstitious nonsense. Unless they can offer reliable evidence for their belief in a God they are delusional because they are basing their belief on their emotions or faulty reasoning. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Offline aitm

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2013, 05:00:16 PM »
I have the urge to P
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2013, 07:55:18 PM »
I have a problem with your reasoning, namely:

Quote
P1) God (Yahweh) is an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being (the Greatest Conceivable Being, GCB) who is the uncaused and perfect creator of the universe
He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.
-Julius Caesar Act I:ii

Offline Colanth

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 01:02:46 AM »
That's the logical equivalent of "Can God create a rock ..."

The Christian apologistic solution to the problem is to claim that God can violate logic.  Which creates the problem that an illogical god can't exist.  (I'm not disagreeing with you either.)
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2013, 12:20:34 PM »
Quote from: "GurrenLagann"
Note: I'm also posting over on AF.org under my 'MindForgedManacle' account.


So, I've made a thread on my argument before we lost months of posts, so I thought I'd make it again and pick y'alls brains on what may be wrong/fallacious with this argument of mine, and potential points of attack by theists (or even my fellow unbelievers).
I did slightly update it to improve it some.


Problem of Imperfect Revelation:


P1) God (Yahweh) is an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being (the Greatest Conceivable Being, GCB) who is the uncaused and perfect creator of the universe.


P2) God's actions are by necessity consistent with his holy and loving nature as the GCB and a perfect being.


P3) God desires that we - his special creations - join him in Heaven after death by believing certain propositions to be true and living a certain way as enumerated in holy texts, the contents of which were inspired directly by Yahweh Himself to some members of his human creation (by visions, audible commands, etc.).


P4) There have been and still are denominational disputes amongst God's followers, many of which are due to differing interpretations of the holy texts themselves and said disputes include even what is required to attain [P3].


P5) Given [P1] and [P3], it follows from [P2] & [P4] that it must be consistent with God's nature to allow for denominational disputes to exist, even those which cause failure for adherents to attain [P3] that God desires (as per [P4]).


P6) From [P1] through [P3], it likewise follows that God has both the power AND motive to prevent any denominational disputes, and  - given [P2] and [P3] specifically - it is consistent with God's nature to reveal himself to any of His creations so that [P3] will come to fruirion without fail and without violating their free will.


C) Therefore, [P1], [P2] or [P3] must, in whole or in part, be false by necessity.



What do you all think? The argument seems to work in my head, and premise 4 is definitely true. And more importantly, it seems to force Christian and Muslims to accept one or more of the following (each of which has massive problems):


-
So, does my argument succeed? If not, where was I fallacious and can it be fixed to work? Thanks for any help.  :)


To me, it works.  It is not a new argument, and has in many forms been batted around for quite some time.  Here are some things that have been brought by theists that are related to such criticisms.

1.  Original sin causes such arguments etc.
2.  Greater Good theodicies.  Greater goods result from various evils.
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3.  The problem of the hiddeness of God.  Google Schellenberg for  the thinker best known for writing on this.
4.  God is inscrutable.  ""My ways are not your ways.  See Romans 11 also.  Used by everybody from Paul to Luther.
5.  Skeptical Theism  God is inscrutable and we cannot conclude apparent problems are conclusive
disproofs.  Takes #4 into the realm of philosophy of religion.
6.  God does not wish to interfere with our free will.
     But allowing original sin to exist is intefering with our free will.  Romans 11, why did the Jews    
     reject Jesus as son of God?  Paul, God hardened their hearts not to.  God does not really value  
     free will thenn.

You are posting about a variant on what is called argument from non-belief.
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Related issues, the problems of numerous revelations.  Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon et al.  Why doesn't God do something to help mankind settle this issue?

The disappearance of God.  In the Bible, God appears to Moses and the Israelites.  Why does God now refuse to appear to mankind and settle issues as per Exodus?

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful  Charlie

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2013, 12:59:07 PM »
Quote from: "Colanth"
That's the logical equivalent of "Can God create a rock ..."

The Christian apologistic solution to the problem is to claim that God can violate logic.  Which creates the problem that an illogical god can't exist.  (I'm not disagreeing with you either.)

The real problem is, if God creates logic, the rules and laws and metaphysical necessities of the Universe, God can have any state of affairs God wants.  God is good.  God has a good nature, and of his own free will, never  does moral evil.  Such a God would as far as able eliminate moral evil.
So God would give man a God-like  good nature and a God-like free  will.  Since God creates logic, anything that may prevent the above would be eliminated by God.

Moral evil exists.
That God does not in fact exist.

God then cannot be outside of or  creator of logic, the rules and laws and metaphysical necessities of the Universe.  So we  also  by this argument establish  naturalism  exists  outside of God and beyond God and his reach.  Since there are a number of disproofs of God, God is not a  good hypothesis, so  naturalism , now proven logically to  exist provides all  we  need to account for the  existence of things as they  are.  Even if we posit  a God, naturalism does the heavy lifting, not God

The claim  God is outside  of logic is a rather nice  claim  for atheists  as it easily becomes a logical proof of naturalism,  and  self destructs.

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful  Charlie

Offline stromboli

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2013, 01:12:59 PM »
In all the years I was a Mormon or a Christian, the logic of God's existence was never an issue, nor the paradoxical nature of his existence; inside the universe, outside, or whatever. For a believer, quite simply a non issue. Go to a church class and question any of their dogma and you will be instantly labeled as a troublemaker and become ostracized. They have a name for people that question the logic of religious beliefs. They are called atheists.
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Offline SGOS

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2013, 01:26:54 PM »
Quote from: "Cheerful Charlie"

The disappearance of God.  In the Bible, God appears to Moses and the Israelites.  Why does God now refuse to appear to mankind and settle issues as per Exodus?

Cheerful Charlie
Something could have happened to God.  He died maybe?
He could have decided he only needed to appear once or twice to say what he had to say?
Maybe Moses was just a crazy charlatan who told people God spoke to him?
Maybe the whole story was just made up?
God wants to hide from modern man, except for Joseph Smith, Pat Robertson, and of course the Pope?

Never-the-less, it is odd that God doesn't show himself to most people.

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2013, 01:40:42 PM »
Quote from: "FrankDK"
I think your argument is sound.

The free will thing is different, however.  The term doesn't occur in the Bible, and there are many stories in that book in which God violates people's free will.  There's no way to reconcile people having free will with the basic notion of God having created us to worship him.

Frank

On free will, one of my favorite Bible chapters is Romans 11.  Why did the Jews not believe in Jesus as son of God?  Because God hardened their hearts not to.  Here, God condemns most of an entire people.
And as per the Gospels, whoever does not accept  Jesus as Son of God is condemned to  burn in hell.

So  God doesn't value free will as  much as many theists claim.

But then the  question arises, why  not make all the Jews believers?  Why not then, make all men, believers?  This raises questions then as to   the alleged goodness of  God, and biblical claims God is merciful, just, and compassionate.  God's sub-goodnesses.

Christians usually have to move from here to special pleading.  God is inscrutable.  Romans 11
:33.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Cheerful Charlie
Cheerful  Charlie

Offline josephpalazzo

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2013, 03:56:17 PM »
Faith is to believe in spite of logic or lack of evidence.

Offline Colanth

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2013, 05:05:18 PM »
Quote from: "Cheerful Charlie"
Quote from: "Colanth"
That's the logical equivalent of "Can God create a rock ..."

The Christian apologistic solution to the problem is to claim that God can violate logic.  Which creates the problem that an illogical god can't exist.  (I'm not disagreeing with you either.)

The real problem is, if God creates logic
He doesn't create it but, since a god not bound by logic can't exist, he's bound by logic (in order to exist).  And if he's bound by logic, he's not God.

The basic problem is that Christianity has defined its god in such ways as to make it not possible for the god so defined to exist.  They overthought the problem.  Deists had a much better idea - their god created the universe.  Period.  Nothing there to form an argument against.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Offline FrankDK

Re: The Problem of Imperfect Revelation: Your Thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2013, 08:24:52 PM »
> There is a lot of conflicting references in the bible. For instance... God gave mankind free will.

Where does it say that in the Bible?  I don't believe the Bible mentions free will.

Frank

 

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