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Time Dilation

Started by Solitary, July 11, 2013, 04:19:44 AM

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Jason78

[spoil:2iw2jlnv]
Quote from: "Solitary"I don't like to copy and paste from the internet unless I'm not believed and have no other way to show I'm correct.

I never said the theory was wrong. And I never said the "measurement" was wrong.

What I said was that a clock on a muon would show a different time than on a clock that measured its time in a lab.

As I said above I don't like having to do this, but this is from the internet with references who agree with me:

Muon lifetime
A comparison of muon lifetimes at different speeds is possible. In the laboratory, slow muons are produced, and in the atmosphere very fast moving muons are introduced by cosmic rays. Taking the muon lifetime at rest as the laboratory value of 2.22 ?s, the lifetime of a cosmic ray produced muon traveling at 98% of the speed of light is about five times longer, in agreement with observations. In this experiment the "clock" is the time taken by processes leading to muon decay, and these processes take place in the moving muon at its own "clock rate", which is much slower than the laboratory clock.


This is what I said and you disagree with it"

What more can I do?
 
QuoteIf you were riding on a muon your clock would measure a different time that would be longer according to relativity because the faster an object goes time slows down, thus it's half life would be longer as measured, and if you were watching the clock of the observer of the muon the observers clock would show the speed and half life of the muon as being longer as produced in the lab by measurement.


References
^ a b c Ashby, Neil (January 2003). "Relativity in the Global Positioning System". Living Rev. Relativity 6: page 16. doi:10.12942/lrr-2003-1.
^ HowStuffWorks.com, Jessika Toothman, "How Do Humans age in space?", accessed April 24 2012
^ a b spaceflight.nasa.gov, letters from expedition 7 – Ed's musings from space, "Relativity", accessed april 24 2012.
^ For sources on special relativistic time dilation, see Albert Einstein's own popular exposition, published in English translation (1920) as "Relativity: The Special and General Theory", especially at "8: On the Idea of Time in Physics", and in following sections 9–12. See also the articles Special relativity, Lorentz transformation and Relativity of simultaneity.
^ Cassidy, David C.; Holton, Gerald James; Rutherford, Floyd James (2002). Understanding Physics. Springer-Verlag New York, Inc. ISBN 0-387-98756-8, Chapter 9 §9.6, p. 422
^ Cutner, Mark Leslie (2003). Astronomy, A Physical Perspective. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-82196-7, Chapter 7 §7.2, p. 128
^ Lerner, Lawrence S. (1996). Physics for Scientists and Engineers, Volume 2. Jones and Bertlett Publishers, Inc. ISBN 0-7637-0460-1, Chapter 38 §38.4, p. 1051,1052
^ Ellis, George F. R.; Williams, Ruth M. (2000). Flat and Curved Space-times, Second Edition. Oxford University Press Inc, New York. ISBN 0-19-850657-0, Chapter 3 §1.3, p. 28-29
^ Adams, Steve (1997). Relativity: an introduction to space-time physics. CRC Press. p. 54. ISBN 0-7484-0621-2, Section 2.5, page 54
^ Ashby, Neil (May 2002). "Relativity in the Global Positioning System". Physics Today 55.5: page 45.
^ See T D Moyer (1981a), "Transformation from proper time on Earth to coordinate time in solar system barycentric space-time frame of reference", Celestial Mechanics 23 (1981) pp. 33–56, equations 2 & 3 at pp. 35–6 combined here and divided throughout by c2.
^ A version of the same relationship can also be seen in Neil Ashby (2002), "Relativity and the Global Positioning System", Physics Today (May 2002), at equation (2).
^ Blaszczak, Z (2007). Laser 2006. Springer. p. 59. ISBN 3540711139., Extract of page 59
^ Hasselkamp, D.; Mondry, E.; Scharmann, A. (1979). "Direct observation of the transversal Doppler-shift". Zeitschrift fur Physik a Atoms and Nuclei 289 (2): 151–155. Bibcode:1979ZPhyA.289..151H. doi:10.1007/BF01435932.
^ a b Chou, C.W.; Hume, D.B.; Rosenband, T.; Wineland, D.J. (2010). "Optical Clocks and Relativity". Science 329 (5999): 1630–1633. Bibcode:2010Sci...329.1630C. doi:10.1126/science.1192720. PMID 20929843.
^ http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... irtim.html
^ http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/metromnia_issue18.pdf
^ JV Stewart (2001). Intermediate electromagnetic theory. Singapore: World Scientific. p. 705. ISBN 981-02-4470-3
^ http://science.howstuffworks.com/humans ... -space.htm
^ Calder, Nigel (2006). Magic universe: a grand tour of modern science. Oxford University Press. p. 378. ISBN 0-19-280669-6., Extract of page 378
^ See equations (3), (4), (6), (9) of Iorio, Lorenzo (27-Jun-2004). "An analytical treatment of the Clock Paradox in the framework of the Special and General Theories of Relativity". Foundations of Physics Letters 18: 1–19. arXiv:physics/0405038. doi:10.1007/s10702-005-2466-8.
[/spoil:2iw2jlnv]

Source
Edit: Formatting.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Solitary

Quote from: "Jason78"[spoil:nmoy9lqu]
Quote from: "Solitary"I don't like to copy and paste from the internet unless I'm not believed and have no other way to show I'm correct.

I never said the theory was wrong. And I never said the "measurement" was wrong.

What I said was that a clock on a muon would show a different time than on a clock that measured its time in a lab.

As I said above I don't like having to do this, but this is from the internet with references who agree with me:

Muon lifetime
A comparison of muon lifetimes at different speeds is possible. In the laboratory, slow muons are produced, and in the atmosphere very fast moving muons are introduced by cosmic rays. Taking the muon lifetime at rest as the laboratory value of 2.22 ?s, the lifetime of a cosmic ray produced muon traveling at 98% of the speed of light is about five times longer, in agreement with observations. In this experiment the "clock" is the time taken by processes leading to muon decay, and these processes take place in the moving muon at its own "clock rate", which is much slower than the laboratory clock.


This is what I said and you disagree with it"

What more can I do?
 
QuoteIf you were riding on a muon your clock would measure a different time that would be longer according to relativity because the faster an object goes time slows down, thus it's half life would be longer as measured, and if you were watching the clock of the observer of the muon the observers clock would show the speed and half life of the muon as being longer as produced in the lab by measurement.



^ a b c Ashby, Neil (January 2003). "Relativity in the Global Positioning System". Living Rev. Relativity 6: page 16. doi:10.12942/lrr-2003-1.
^ HowStuffWorks.com, Jessika Toothman, "How Do Humans age in space?", accessed April 24 2012
^ a b spaceflight.nasa.gov, letters from expedition 7 – Ed's musings from space, "Relativity", accessed april 24 2012.
^ For sources on special relativistic time dilation, see Albert Einstein's own popular exposition, published in English translation (1920) as "Relativity: The Special and General Theory", especially at "8: On the Idea of Time in Physics", and in following sections 9–12. See also the articles Special relativity, Lorentz transformation and Relativity of simultaneity.
^ Cassidy, David C.; Holton, Gerald James; Rutherford, Floyd James (2002). Understanding Physics. Springer-Verlag New York, Inc. ISBN 0-387-98756-8, Chapter 9 §9.6, p. 422
^ Cutner, Mark Leslie (2003). Astronomy, A Physical Perspective. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-82196-7, Chapter 7 §7.2, p. 128
^ Lerner, Lawrence S. (1996). Physics for Scientists and Engineers, Volume 2. Jones and Bertlett Publishers, Inc. ISBN 0-7637-0460-1, Chapter 38 §38.4, p. 1051,1052
^ Ellis, George F. R.; Williams, Ruth M. (2000). Flat and Curved Space-times, Second Edition. Oxford University Press Inc, New York. ISBN 0-19-850657-0, Chapter 3 §1.3, p. 28-29
^ Adams, Steve (1997). Relativity: an introduction to space-time physics. CRC Press. p. 54. ISBN 0-7484-0621-2, Section 2.5, page 54
^ Ashby, Neil (May 2002). "Relativity in the Global Positioning System". Physics Today 55.5: page 45.
^ See T D Moyer (1981a), "Transformation from proper time on Earth to coordinate time in solar system barycentric space-time frame of reference", Celestial Mechanics 23 (1981) pp. 33–56, equations 2 & 3 at pp. 35–6 combined here and divided throughout by c2.
^ A version of the same relationship can also be seen in Neil Ashby (2002), "Relativity and the Global Positioning System", Physics Today (May 2002), at equation (2).
^ Blaszczak, Z (2007). Laser 2006. Springer. p. 59. ISBN 3540711139., Extract of page 59
^ Hasselkamp, D.; Mondry, E.; Scharmann, A. (1979). "Direct observation of the transversal Doppler-shift". Zeitschrift fur Physik a Atoms and Nuclei 289 (2): 151–155. Bibcode:1979ZPhyA.289..151H. doi:10.1007/BF01435932.
^ a b Chou, C.W.; Hume, D.B.; Rosenband, T.; Wineland, D.J. (2010). "Optical Clocks and Relativity". Science 329 (5999): 1630–1633. Bibcode:2010Sci...329.1630C. doi:10.1126/science.1192720. PMID 20929843.
^ http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... irtim.html
^ http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/metromnia_issue18.pdf
^ JV Stewart (2001). Intermediate electromagnetic theory. Singapore: World Scientific. p. 705. ISBN 981-02-4470-3
^ http://science.howstuffworks.com/humans ... -space.htm
^ Calder, Nigel (2006). Magic universe: a grand tour of modern science. Oxford University Press. p. 378. ISBN 0-19-280669-6., Extract of page 378
^ See equations (3), (4), (6), (9) of Iorio, Lorenzo (27-Jun-2004). "An analytical treatment of the Clock Paradox in the framework of the Special and General Theories of Relativity". Foundations of Physics Letters 18: 1–19. arXiv:physics/0405038. doi:10.1007/s10702-005-2466-8.
[/spoil:nmoy9lqu]

Source
Edit: Formatting.



References
^ a b c Ashby, Neil (January 2003). "Relativity in the Global Positioning System". Living Rev. Relativity 6: page 16. doi:10.12942/lrr-2003-1.
^ HowStuffWorks.com, Jessika Toothman, "How Do Humans age in space?", accessed April 24 2012
^ a b spaceflight.nasa.gov, letters from expedition 7 – Ed's musings from space, "Relativity", accessed april 24 2012.
^ For sources on special relativistic time dilation, see Albert Einstein's own popular exposition, published in English translation (1920) as "Relativity: The Special and General Theory", especially at "8: On the Idea of Time in Physics", and in following sections 9–12. See also the articles Special relativity, Lorentz transformation and Relativity of simultaneity.
^ Cassidy, David C.; Holton, Gerald James; Rutherford, Floyd James (2002). Understanding Physics. Springer-Verlag New York, Inc. ISBN 0-387-98756-8, Chapter 9 §9.6, p. 422
^ Cutner, Mark Leslie (2003). Astronomy, A Physical Perspective. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-82196-7, Chapter 7 §7.2, p. 128
^ Lerner, Lawrence S. (1996). Physics for Scientists and Engineers, Volume 2. Jones and Bertlett Publishers, Inc. ISBN 0-7637-0460-1, Chapter 38 §38.4, p. 1051,1052
^ Ellis, George F. R.; Williams, Ruth M. (2000). Flat and Curved Space-times, Second Edition. Oxford University Press Inc, New York. ISBN 0-19-850657-0, Chapter 3 §1.3, p. 28-29
^ Adams, Steve (1997). Relativity: an introduction to space-time physics. CRC Press. p. 54. ISBN 0-7484-0621-2, Section 2.5, page 54
^ Ashby, Neil (May 2002). "Relativity in the Global Positioning System". Physics Today 55.5: page 45.
^ See T D Moyer (1981a), "Transformation from proper time on Earth to coordinate time in solar system barycentric space-time frame of reference", Celestial Mechanics 23 (1981) pp. 33–56, equations 2 & 3 at pp. 35–6 combined here and divided throughout by c2.
^ A version of the same relationship can also be seen in Neil Ashby (2002), "Relativity and the Global Positioning System", Physics Today (May 2002), at equation (2).
^ Blaszczak, Z (2007). Laser 2006. Springer. p. 59. ISBN 3540711139., Extract of page 59
^ Hasselkamp, D.; Mondry, E.; Scharmann, A. (1979). "Direct observation of the transversal Doppler-shift". Zeitschrift fur Physik a Atoms and Nuclei 289 (2): 151–155. Bibcode:1979ZPhyA.289..151H. doi:10.1007/BF01435932.
^ a b Chou, C.W.; Hume, D.B.; Rosenband, T.; Wineland, D.J. (2010). "Optical Clocks and Relativity". Science 329 (5999): 1630–1633. Bibcode:2010Sci...329.1630C. doi:10.1126/science.1192720. PMID 20929843.
^ http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... irtim.html
^ http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/metromnia_issue18.pdf
^ JV Stewart (2001). Intermediate electromagnetic theory. Singapore: World Scientific. p. 705. ISBN 981-02-4470-3
^ http://science.howstuffworks.com/humans ... -space.htm
^ Calder, Nigel (2006). Magic universe: a grand tour of modern science. Oxford University Press. p. 378. ISBN 0-19-280669-6., Extract of page 378
^ See equations (3), (4), (6), (9) of Iorio, Lorenzo (27-Jun-2004). "An analytical treatment of the Clock Paradox in the framework of the Special and General Theories of Relativity". Foundations of Physics Letters 18: 1–19. arXiv:physics/0405038. doi:10.1007/s10702-005-2466-8.
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Colanth

Quote from: "Solitary"References
The fact that an article has relevant references (not all references are relevant - or even valid) doesn't automatically mean that the author understood the references he used.  About.com and similar sites are VERY poor references for scientific matters.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

josephpalazzo

Quote from: "Solitary"I don't like to copy and paste from the internet unless I'm not believed and have no other way to show I'm correct.

I never said the theory was wrong. And I never said the "measurement" was wrong.

What I said was that a clock on a muon would show a different time than on a clock that measured its time in a lab.

As I said above I don't like having to do this, but this is from the internet with references who agree with me:

Muon lifetime
A comparison of muon lifetimes at different speeds is possible. In the laboratory, slow muons are produced, and in the atmosphere very fast moving muons are introduced by cosmic rays. Taking the muon lifetime at rest as the laboratory value of 2.22 ?s, the lifetime of a cosmic ray produced muon traveling at 98% of the speed of light is about five times longer, in agreement with observations. In this experiment the "clock" is the time taken by processes leading to muon decay, and these processes take place in the moving muon at its own "clock rate", which is much slower than the laboratory clock.


This is what I said and you disagree with it"

What more can I do?
 
QuoteIf you were riding on a muon your clock would measure a different time that would be longer according to relativity because the faster an object goes time slows down, thus it's half life would be longer as measured, and if you were watching the clock of the observer of the muon the observers clock would show the speed and half life of the muon as being longer as produced in the lab by measurement.


That's not what was in contention. What was in contention is your belief that it was an illusion. You wrote: This is why Einstein said: " The answer can only be: Yes, it is an illusion. A Stubbornly Persistent Illusion in the words of Einstein. He's talking about measurement being real as you say, but that it is an illusion to think they actually do. You didn't answer my objection to that. Go back and read it.

Solitary

Quote from: "josephpalazzo"
Quote from: "Solitary"I don't like to copy and paste from the internet unless I'm not believed and have no other way to show I'm correct.

I never said the theory was wrong. And I never said the "measurement" was wrong.

What I said was that a clock on a muon would show a different time than on a clock that measured its time in a lab.

As I said above I don't like having to do this, but this is from the internet with references who agree with me:

Muon lifetime
A comparison of muon lifetimes at different speeds is possible. In the laboratory, slow muons are produced, and in the atmosphere very fast moving muons are introduced by cosmic rays. Taking the muon lifetime at rest as the laboratory value of 2.22 ?s, the lifetime of a cosmic ray produced muon traveling at 98% of the speed of light is about five times longer, in agreement with observations. In this experiment the "clock" is the time taken by processes leading to muon decay, and these processes take place in the moving muon at its own "clock rate", which is much slower than the laboratory clock.


This is what I said and you disagree with it"

What more can I do?
 
QuoteIf you were riding on a muon your clock would measure a different time that would be longer according to relativity because the faster an object goes time slows down, thus it's half life would be longer as measured, and if you were watching the clock of the observer of the muon the observers clock would show the speed and half life of the muon as being longer as produced in the lab by measurement.


That's not what was in contention. What was in contention is your belief that it was an illusion. You wrote: This is why Einstein said: " The answer can only be: Yes, it is an illusion. A Stubbornly Persistent Illusion in the words of Einstein. He's talking about measurement being real as you say, but that it is an illusion to think they actually do. You didn't answer my objection to that. Go back and read it.

Whatever!
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.