A Problem With "Evil" People

[Shiranu]

I do not know what most of you guy's perspective on this issue is, but I do not believe in the concept of "Good" and "Evil" people. I do not think anyone can be objectively "evil", purely evil and that the concept of an "evil" person is a harmful mindset that allows group-think without one's own thought.

A. Objectively "evil". There are no set of objective morals outside of religion. While there can be a common consensus on morals (killing is wrong, stealing is bad, etc.) that can be widely considered as true, problems arise when we look at these closer. Killing is NOT always wrong, nor is stealing (Killing someone trying to kill you, stealing food because you are about to starve to death).

These common consensuses also vary from culture to culture. If they were objective, this would not be the case. Without a common consensus amongst man, an all-knowing being would be required to explain what the objective truth is. Since one does not exist, there is no way we can call anyone "truly evil".

B. Purely evil. I do not believe anyone can be purely evil. Hitler is considered an embodiment of evil, yet he loved dogs, he loved painting, he loved his wife... if Hitler was "evil" then these deeds would have to be evil as well. This does not mean that his actions weren't HARMFUL and that he should be called on those harmful actions, but to say he was evil is not correct.

Likewise the person who murders their children, the mass murderer, what have you... they all tend to have in common the fact that they are mentally ill. Being broken does not make one evil. To claim these people are evil is to therefor say that everyone with their disorder is therefor evil, they simply haven't acted on it. I think this is a huge disservice to anyone with mental illnesses. We need to help people like this, not condemn them.

C. Finally, "evil" leads to group-think. This is my biggest problem with the concept of "good" and "evil" people. If we claim that "evil" people exist (Hitler, Osama bin Laden, Saddam, etc.), then it means that the concept of "evil" is legitimate. At that point, it allows the people in power to deem anyone they disagree with "evil" to turn their followers against them.

It is a harmful rhetoric that creates an "us-vs-them" mentality... who cares WHY people do anything we disagree with, they are evil so we do not have to care! Yet the problem is the "evil" people are generally people who have had "evil" acts committed upon them or have mental illnesses. To claim someone else "evil" is simply a way to divert any blame from yourself to the target or to say that you do not care about helping them, merely punishing them. This is not a good system to base any society on.


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That said, I think acts can certainly be judged based on their harmful-useful scale, or do the actions conform to what society finds acceptable, but to categorize an individual as evil is simply a way of avoiding any of the root issues and instead just find the quick and easy band-aide fix of punishment. However this fix only fixes the trouble maker, not the trouble causer.

[stromboli]

I don't use the term evil outside of religion. There are people who are assholes and people who are downright hateful and even malevolent, But I agree. To refer to them as evil puts a label on them that conforms to a religious model, which I don't agree with.

[GSOgymrat]

Life would be easier if there was pure good, absolute evil and humans were capable of recognizing the difference.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Life would be easier if there was pure good, absolute evil and humans were capable of recognizing the difference.

This.

Like you, Shiranu, I don't really believe in a concept of good and evil. I know some people are utterly disgusting, but employing empathy means understanding something from the  perspective of the other. If they truly believe what they're doing is right and not just being a dick about it then it's hard to quanitfy behaviour in terms of good and evil.

Indeed, generally it links into concepts of otherism. I'm sure the Nazi's (LOL - Godwin's law) probably viewed the allies as evil. Hitler certainly viewed the Jews as evil.

I think another factor that plays an important role is that of context, specifically what gave rise to the views/actions/opinions of the 'other' in the first place.

[stromboli]

Just saw a war show about the closing years of WW2, and the behavior of Stalin. Here is a man who has no religion, and whose effort was to spread Communism. He deliberately delayed attacking Germany until he had managed to bring Poland, Rumania and Bulgaria under his control, and captured the Nickel-rich portion of Finland he wanted. What he did was to further his ambitions and from his standpoint, very logical. From our standpoint it was evil. I would say it is very much in the eye of the beholder.

What our government is doing right now with the NSA I consider wrong and immoral, but apparently they can justify it as protective of our country and national interests. Again very much in the eye of the beholder.

[WitchSabrina]

Just saw a war show about the closing years of WW2, and the behavior of Stalin. Here is a man who has no religion, and whose effort was to spread Communism. He deliberately delayed attacking Germany until he had managed to bring Poland, Rumania and Bulgaria under his control, and captured the Nickel-rich portion of Finland he wanted. What he did was to further his ambitions and from his standpoint, very logical. From our standpoint it was evil. I would say it is very much in the eye of the beholder.

What our government is doing right now with the NSA I consider wrong and immoral, but apparently they can justify it as protective of our country and national interests. Again very much in the eye of the beholder.

I agree, Strom.  As *evil* can be considered pretty subjective just as *good* can be.......  it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is meant by "evil" or "good" really.

[Solitary]

The term evil comes from black and white thinking that there are absolutes. This is the cornerstone of religious belief. This is the type of thinking that goes into saying: "you're either with us or against us." "The bible is God's word so is absolutely right."  "The road to hell is paved with good intensions."  :shock:  Hmmm! that one sounds right.  #-o   8-)  Solitary

[WitchSabrina]

The term evil comes from black and white thinking that there are absolutes. This is the cornerstone of religious belief. This is the type of thinking that goes into saying: "you're either with us or against us." "The bible is God's word so is absolutely right."  "The road to hell is paved with good intensions."  :shock:  Hmmm! that one sounds right.  #-o   8-)  Solitary

Brings to mind a rather *us* and *them* attitude........... as in who gets to define what evil is (?)

[stromboli]

The term evil comes from black and white thinking that there are absolutes. This is the cornerstone of religious belief. This is the type of thinking that goes into saying: "you're either with us or against us." "The bible is God's word so is absolutely right."  "The road to hell is paved with good intensions."  :shock:  Hmmm! that one sounds right.  #-o   8-)  Solitary

Brings to mind a rather *us* and *them* attitude........... as in who gets to define what evil is (?)

True. Religion is very much about us and them thinking, what I have referred to as the circle the wagons mentality.

[Satt]

"Evil" is definately a relative term. For instance, a woman wearing a nice dress dancing in a place of worship might be considered "good" in a penticostal Christian church, but take that same woman doing the same thing in a mosque in the Middle East and she may be considered "evil" and stoned for her actions.

[Agramon]

I liked Penn Jillette's take on evil (2:40-3:45):

[youtube:3bzqhv7d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb7PO9eRabo[/youtube:3bzqhv7d]

[Shiranu]

It's good to see that seems to be the common consensus then. I have heard a few atheists consider people evil and it just didn't seem to make any philosophical sense to me. To go to Fidel's Hitler & Stromboli's Stalin statements, I was watching a WW2 documentary is what really made me think of that.

I very much liked Jillette's take on it.

[Hydra009]

Very good OP, Shiranu.  I've been meaning to talk about this too.

Basically, I see labeling people as "evil" as a form of distancing.  They weren't just relatively normal people who went on to commit horrific acts.  They were aberrant.  They were crazy.  They were pure evil.  Not like us.  Never like us.

Hitler is pretty much the poster child of evil.  But you'd never guess it prior to his publication of Mein Kampf.  This was a guy who's personal life was very unassuming.  Very friendly, charming even.

In actuality, evil (if such a term even makes sense) is banal.  Just take regular people and make an otherwise immoral action rewarding or approved by some authority.  Slavery and genocide are generally not the actions of psychopaths but the actions of common people and regularly practiced until historically recent times.  The tragedy is more from a lack of empathy than from possessing some quasi-supernatural evilness.

What does it mean when we call someone evil?  It means that they committed an action that we strongly disapprove of - which is usually but not always correlated with harm.  Murderers and rapists are usually at the top, which is no shock considering how harmful these actions are.  But sometimes, the evilness is subjective - one man's war hero is another's war criminal, one man's captain of industry is another's robber baron, and so forth.  And sometimes, a lot of people get harshly demonized for some fairly harmless stuff.  It wasn't that long ago that blasphemers, political dissidents, homosexuals, and race-traitors were also strongly reviled.

IMHO, evil doesn't really exist.  It's just a name we give to malicious harm.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

You all are forgetting about me, the most vile, evil form of existence..  
Alright..i have my good side too, but I live for pure evil.. ..Well, not exactly pure..sort of kind of in a way evil.. once in awhile..  :-k