Author Topic: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?  (Read 1061 times)

Offline Hydra009

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2021, 10:36:50 AM »
It's best when people are offered a choice and interventions need not be "all or nothing" or rigid.
Ideally, people would just make rational choices based on solid information and we wouldn't even need to talk about this stuff because it'd be over.  Unfortunately, humans are disturbingly inhuman a lot of the time.  Some of that you can chalk up to bad actors spewing disinformation and borderline intentionally trying to get as many fellow Americans killed as possible (these people tend to call themselves patriots).  Some of it is stubbornness or pride or unrealistic beliefs or whatever.

Like traffic, you can't just let people do whatever they want and hope for the best.  If people were just driving their cars off a cliff, I wouldn't in principle have a problem with that.  You want to off yourself, I won't stop you.  But the reality is that they're far more likely to crash into other cars, and whole families are in each car.  As the saying goes, your freedom ends at my face.

People have tried lots of stuff, like lotteries or free concerts for the vaccinated (the carrot approach) or disadvantaging being unvaccinated (the stick approach).  Unfortunately, to get the most people looking after themselves and each other, you pretty much have to mandate it (insert sad commentary on the nature of humanity here).  The data doesn't lie: mandated masks alone gives a ~25% reduction in covid cases/deaths VS unmandated.

I work with a lady who is as dumb as a bag of rocks.  Put off getting the shot for over a year.  Recently, she finally got the shot.  You know why?  It was mandatory.  No other reason.

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2021, 12:04:55 PM »
If being pro-vax but anti-madate makes me anti-vax, then I guess the part of the equation that the opposition likes most is the mandate, and that it is a vax that is mandated is secondary.  The important point is to mandate something, anything, so that there is something mandated.
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.

No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

Offline SGOS

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2021, 12:11:07 PM »
the part of the equation that the opposition likes most is the mandate, and that it is a vax that is mandated is secondary.  The important point is to mandate something, anything, so that there is something mandated.
I'm at a total loss to understand how you process information.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2021, 12:24:11 PM »
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Why the fuck should I be required to stop at a red light!?

A stop light isn't taking away your bodily autonomy, nor is a seatbelt (which is also don't think should really be mandatory).
Terrorism is when you do what we do but wear a different uniform than us.

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2021, 12:25:54 PM »
I think this 'medical freedom' nonsense is a largely a misplaced attempt to regain control by people who are barely treading water. Solving problems that are not really problems gives them that rush of accomplishment and also being part of a group with special knowledge. The conspiracies are all about 'issues' that are so terrible that their own real-life issues seem to fade away in contrast. Who would not want to save the children? When after years...no predictions occur, they get depressed.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2021, 12:32:44 PM »
I don't buy any of the conspiracies that it causes health issues, it's just not the government's place to tell you what you can or cant do with your body... and now that they know they can abuse that right even more than they did before, it's only going to creep more and more in that direction.
Terrorism is when you do what we do but wear a different uniform than us.

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2021, 01:14:49 PM »
I don't buy any of the conspiracies that it causes health issues, it's just not the government's place to tell you what you can or cant do with your body... and now that they know they can abuse that right even more than they did before, it's only going to creep more and more in that direction.
The govt tells us what to do with our bodies all the time.  It told me to put my body on the line when I was drafted for Nam.  It told me to get a whole slew of shots when drafted--and when going to school.  It tells me that my body must be strapped in when driving.  In the case of keeping diseases at bay, the govt has a critical right to tell you to get treated or vaccinated.  Because you don't want a vaccine puts me and mine at an unnecessary risk.  Smoking, for decades was deemed a personal activity and dangerous only to the smoker.  We since learned that is not so--your smoking impacts not just you but everybody around you.  Even if there was not a govt in place, somebody would be telling you what to do with your body--it is a condition of human life.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Hydra009

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2021, 01:16:06 PM »
I don't buy any of the conspiracies that it causes health issues, it's just not the government's place to tell you what you can or cant do with your body
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

Also:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-history-of-vaccine-mandates-in-america-11631890699 (link without paywall)

Fun fact: my high school (a government institution) mandated that students come in and get a meningitis shot because there was a meningitis outbreak.  Currently, that stuff is mandated.  No one batted an eye because right-wing pundits didn't whine about it on TV.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 01:21:37 PM by Hydra009 »

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2021, 01:26:36 PM »
Many employers, including my own, charge employees who choose to use tobacco products more for health insurance. Perhaps people who refuse to receive vaccinations should be financially responsible for any COVID-related illnesses they incur or insurance companies could increase the premiums for people who choose not to be vaccinated.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2021, 02:11:41 PM »
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It told me to put my body on the line when I was drafted for Nam.

Which I fully believe the draft should be abolished.

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It tells me that my body must be strapped in when driving.

And while I don't think that should be a law, I cant believe you are still comparing wearing a strap over your chest, which literally does nothing to physically alter you, to a medical procedure that does.

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Smoking, for decades was deemed a personal activity and dangerous only to the smoker.

And it should be left up to the business to decide if they allow it or not.
Terrorism is when you do what we do but wear a different uniform than us.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2021, 02:12:03 PM »
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html

Also:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-long-history-of-vaccine-mandates-in-america-11631890699 (link without paywall)

Fun fact: my high school (a government institution) mandated that students come in and get a meningitis shot because there was a meningitis outbreak.  Currently, that stuff is mandated.  No one batted an eye because right-wing pundits didn't whine about it on TV.

I figured someone would bring that up, and I am opposed to it as well.


This has literally nothing to do with right-wing/left-wing politics, considering I am probably the furthest left here. It has to do with the fact that we have a strongman government who only derives it's power from having the biggest guns in the land, and by accepting they have some legitimacy in dictating what you can or cant do with your body gives them full legitimacy to do that.

I personally don't believe in that legitimacy of their rule at all, so I oppose the legitimacy of them dictating my body by default.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 02:14:45 PM by Shiranu »
Terrorism is when you do what we do but wear a different uniform than us.

Offline SGOS

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2021, 03:51:28 PM »
It has to do with the fact that we have a strongman government who only derives it's power from having the biggest guns in the land, and by accepting they have some legitimacy in dictating what you can or cant do with your body gives them full legitimacy to do that.
If the government really was that powerful for that reason, we would have a nation wide mandate.  But we have a democracy, which while currently threatened by the Trump movement, still keeps government responsible to the people, and that includes the knuckle draggers, Trumpers, and Texans who want to have a mandate that you can't have a mandate.  Mandates are by consensus, well by popularity actually, which in this case we do not have.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 03:54:14 PM by SGOS »

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2021, 03:53:24 PM »
I personally don't believe in that legitimacy of their rule at all, so I oppose the legitimacy of them dictating my body by default.

"The government can't tell me what to do" does not address the problems associated with this pandemic. Nobody likes being forced to do something they would rather not, or even something they would normally choose of their own accord. Are you proposing that individuals decide for themselves whether to be vaccinated or wear masks or social distance and that society just accept that more people are going to be sick and die? I would be more in agreement with your position of individual autonomy if we were not discussing a communicable disease, if this was something that only affected the individual. I prefer the consequences of people being coerced into taking this vaccine to minimize all of the terrible consequences of this pandemic than the consequences of protecting the bodily autonomy of individuals.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2021, 03:54:37 PM »
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Are you proposing that individuals decide for themselves whether to be vaccinated or wear masks or social distance and that society just accept that more people are going to be sick and die?

Yes, if the only alternative is that the government forces them to do it.


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I prefer the consequences of people being coerced into taking [size=78%]this [/size]vaccine to minimize all of the terrible consequences of [size=78%]this [/size]pandemic than the consequences of protecting the bodily autonomy of individuals.

But that's not what it's really about; that is just a symptom of a much larger problem that is an essentially ruling class that minimally represents us at best can coerce, by brute force, the people bellow them into doing whatever they deem acceptable - up to the point of dictating what we do with our own bodies, literally the most fundamental aspect of being human.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 03:56:35 PM by Shiranu »
Terrorism is when you do what we do but wear a different uniform than us.

Re: Sympathy for Anti-Vax/Maskers?
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2021, 03:57:44 PM »
Yes, if the only alternative is that the government forces them to do it.

For better or worse, because we live in a capitalist system and because humans are social creatures that respond to social pressure there are other means of coercion.