Author Topic: Is it evil to be a billionaire?  (Read 660 times)

Offline trdsf

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2022, 05:04:05 PM »
No, how one acquired that wealth is important, it is wrong if they gained it through exploitation of labour, or inheritance or other illegitimate means that don't involve earning it or working for it and just make you a parasite riding on the backs of your workers or in the case of inheritance, your family.
Which comes down to how one defines 'exploitation'.  If someone is fairly compensated for their work, with fair pay and fair benefits and fair hours, is that still exploitative?
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline ProletarianBanner

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2022, 05:08:36 PM »
Which comes down to how one defines 'exploitation'.  If someone is fairly compensated for their work, with fair pay and fair benefits and fair hours, is that still exploitative?
Yes, as it is not truly fair, they extract the surplus value if the Workers' labour and they are not fully entitled to the fruits of their labour and are figuratively unable to reap what they sow and what they get paid is always minute compared to what the CEO makes. There is still private appropriation of wealth.

Offline ProletarianBanner

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2022, 05:09:41 PM »
Which comes down to how one defines 'exploitation'.  If someone is fairly compensated for their work, with fair pay and fair benefits and fair hours, is that still exploitative?
Also, since their goal is to maximize profit, it is more profitable for them to pay them lower wages and give them less benefits so that is what they often do.

Offline trdsf

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2022, 05:21:45 PM »
Yes, as it is not truly fair, they extract the surplus value if the Workers' labour and they are not fully entitled to the fruits of their labour and are figuratively unable to reap what they sow and what they get paid is always minute compared to what the CEO makes. There is still private appropriation of wealth.
So even though I explicitly stipulated fair wages and fair benefits and fair hours, you simply ignore that,   Way to strawman there.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline trdsf

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2022, 05:22:40 PM »
Also, since their goal is to maximize profit, it is more profitable for them to pay them lower wages and give them less benefits so that is what they often do.
Also completely ignoring the explicit stipulation of fair wages, benefits and hours.  Are you capable of answering a question as posed, or do you have to twist it into something I didn't ask?
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline ProletarianBanner

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2022, 05:24:42 PM »
So even though I explicitly stipulated fair wages and fair benefits and fair hours, you simply ignore that,   Way to strawman there.
I am not attempting to strawman, I am trying to explain that there is no such thing as a fair wage and that it is still exploitation of labour.

Offline trdsf

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2022, 05:45:13 PM »
I am not attempting to strawman, I am trying to explain that there is no such thing as a fair wage and that it is still exploitation of labour.
"No such thing as a fair wage".  Which means it's unfair even under communism, then.

I don't disagree that corporate executives are vastly overcompensated, but even without their exorbitant wages, you still need to have a hierarchy in order to be responsible for decision-making at departmental and organizational levels (and to be responsible if their decisions prove wrong), especially when unexpected events comes up.  Not everything can wait on a committee or a vote.

And that means stratification is always going to exist.  You can't get around it by rotating in new decision-makers by sortition because not everyone has the skillset necessary to make decisions on that scale.  I am a fairly intelligent person, but I know that if I were tasked to run our agency, I'd make a dog's breakfast of it.  You still have to fall back on (s)elections between people who want the position (even if the candidates are weeded out by some interview process to determine that they actually have the skills necessary for decision-making)... and that takes you right back to organizational stratification again.

Large scale organizations, be they corporate or not, are not self-organizing, self-directing, or self-operating.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline ProletarianBanner

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2022, 05:49:28 PM »
"No such thing as a fair wage".  Which means it's unfair even under communism, then.

I don't disagree that corporate executives are vastly overcompensated, but even without their exorbitant wages, you still need to have a hierarchy in order to be responsible for decision-making at departmental and organizational levels (and to be responsible if their decisions prove wrong), especially when unexpected events comes up.  Not everything can wait on a committee or a vote.

And that means stratification is always going to exist.  You can't get around it by rotating in new decision-makers by sortition because not everyone has the skillset necessary to make decisions on that scale.  I am a fairly intelligent person, but I know that if I were tasked to run our agency, I'd make a dog's breakfast of it.  You still have to fall back on (s)elections between people who want the position (even if the candidates are weeded out by some interview process to determine that they actually have the skills necessary for decision-making)... and that takes you right back to organizational stratification again.

Large scale organizations, be they corporate or not, are not self-organizing, self-directing, or self-operating.
In a Communist Society there is no wage at all as it is moneyless, there is no money. In a Communist Society there is a gift economy "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" as Marx had worded it.

Offline ProletarianBanner

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2022, 05:51:26 PM »
"No such thing as a fair wage".  Which means it's unfair even under communism, then.

I don't disagree that corporate executives are vastly overcompensated, but even without their exorbitant wages, you still need to have a hierarchy in order to be responsible for decision-making at departmental and organizational levels (and to be responsible if their decisions prove wrong), especially when unexpected events comes up.  Not everything can wait on a committee or a vote.

And that means stratification is always going to exist.  You can't get around it by rotating in new decision-makers by sortition because not everyone has the skillset necessary to make decisions on that scale.  I am a fairly intelligent person, but I know that if I were tasked to run our agency, I'd make a dog's breakfast of it.  You still have to fall back on (s)elections between people who want the position (even if the candidates are weeded out by some interview process to determine that they actually have the skills necessary for decision-making)... and that takes you right back to organizational stratification again.

Large scale organizations, be they corporate or not, are not self-organizing, self-directing, or self-operating.
You mean within Socialism and in Socialism they ARE entitled to the fruits of their labour as they don't have a Capitalist extracting the surplus value of their labour thus there is no exploitation.

Offline trdsf

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2022, 05:57:02 PM »
In a Communist Society there is no wage at all as it is moneyless, there is no money. In a Communist Society there is a gift economy "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" as Marx had worded it.
And this relies upon the unrealistic assumption that humans will act under enlightened self-interest, despite all evidence to the contrary.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 09:35:36 PM by trdsf »
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline trdsf

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2022, 05:59:14 PM »
You mean within Socialism and in Socialism they ARE entitled to the fruits of their labour as they don't have a Capitalist extracting the surplus value of their labour thus there is no exploitation.
It sounds like you're suggesting that the person responsible for the smooth and efficient operation of an organization is not also entitled to fair compensation, because they're not part of the direct production line.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Offline Mr.Obvious

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Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2022, 06:01:55 PM »
You know, I don´t really agree with Banner. Not completely.
Namely, I think fair wage is possible.
But I do think she has a point, in a way.

I don´t think there is, in our global society, any instance of anyone accumulating enough wealth to become a bilionaire without there being no exploitation somewhere down the Line.  I mean, even if, for instance, Jeff bezos treated all his employees well enough and said ´fuck the profit´ and still became as succesful  as he did... the products he got and distributed still were made off the back suffering in other countries. That may seem like an unfair train of thought. But it is what I believe. I may like ´Douwe egberts´, a Coffee brand. For all I know the people in the company get treated well and get paid fairly. But they still probably buy their Coffee as dit cheap as possible from farmers who work in subpar circumstances for far too little pay. And they have had their own scandals of putting in too few Coffee in their pads for more money.

As i´ve said, this makes it so that I don´t think solely ´the wealthy´ are this brand of ´evil´. But us too, we are the wealth, overall. With our nice smartphones and meat nearly every day and our reliance on environment harming airconditioning and our plane-trips and... all things that are basically surplus, if we are honest. And that if we remain honest: harm most of our fellow man and the planet more than it aids them. I don't see how one can function outside of this, don't get me wrong. And if we were to end all economy, the world would also be a bad place. But still, unless one fights constantly and vigilantly for a drastically different global system, one  in my book must concider him or herself as ´evil´. Just like about anyone else. And I do.

Funny thing about this is, while I thus, I believe, agree with Banner in that it is impossible to aqcuire this wealth in practice without being worth of the title  ´evil´ and therefor it is pretty much fair to say that it is indeed evil to be a billionaire... I equally wholeheartedly believe that it is in practice impossible to create a communist society because this ´evilness´, this greed and selfishness and wilfull ignorance we all display and need to adhere to, to be able to function throughout the day is part of what makes us basically and fundamentally human. It is part of our nature.
A.d we can mitigate some of the worst parts of our nature. Indeed in a society, such should be our strife. But something will always be out of reach. Perfection, ultimate fairness, complete equality... it is important to keep failing in our quest to obtain these. But I am sure we never will.

So in the end, I probably dissagree with absolutely everyone here and just make a twat of myself.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 06:07:08 PM by Mr.Obvious »
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Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2022, 06:35:27 PM »
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/oct/18/hillary-clinton/clinton-correct-buffett-claimed-pay-lower-tax-rate/

In 2007, Buffett told NBC Nightly News that he pays a smaller tax rate than multiple employees in his office.

In 2011, Buffett wrote an op-ed in the New York Times called "Stop Coddling the Super-Rich." In the article, Buffett said that his taxes amounted to "only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office."

In 2013, he told CNBC that while his tax rate rose 8 to 9 points more that year, "The differential between me and the rest of the office, not just my secretary but the rest of the office, was greater than that. It'll be closer, but I'll probably be the lowest-paying taxpayer in the office."

A quick phone call to Buffett’s office confirmed this fact-check. Buffett’s assistant Debbie Bosanek -- the secretary Buffett mentions -- confirmed her boss pays a lower tax rate than she does
.


I am an investor my former Aerospace company. They have not paid a penny in taxes yet made money hand over fist using all the tax credits they could.

CEO compensation has grown 940% since 1978
Typical worker compensation has risen only 12% during that time
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

I have learned some tax tricks vs the IRS from billionaires over the years and once in a while I will play one. Having a salary pretty much dooms you to pay taxes. For investors or business owners with high earnings and a tax rate of 18%..yet you can secure perpetual 5% loan, why take the income? Don't sell that stock...but when you do capital gains are still your friend over a salary.

Almost anyone can own their own time after around 15 years of hard-core working and saving.  I waited to expand my net worth to 50 times my annual spend, however the rule is that you can clock out at 25x, no matter your age.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/reel/video/p09qwdp6/playing-with-fire-the-millennial-movement-to-quit-work
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 06:37:03 PM by Cassia »

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2022, 07:40:55 PM »
My problem with people who have extreme wealth is the amount of power they have over the government. The super-rich have the ability to simply write their own rules. I have no problem with some people having more money or material possessions than others but in a wealthy country like the US everyone should have the basic necessities of food, housing, and healthcare, whether one is employed or not. Taxation should be progressive to the degree that people cannot obtain enough power to circumvent a democratic system, which is what is happening. If people have the option of not working and living on basic necessities then entering into an employment agreement where people are "exploited for their labor" is an individual's choice.

Re: Is it evil to be a billionaire?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2022, 08:01:32 PM »
No, it's just you are ignorant and do not understand that their economy is actually Capitalist.

Imagine being so radically communist that you place socialism next to capitalism.
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