The Fall of Kabul

[SGOS]

I knew we would not be in Afghanistan forever, and expected it would be a mess when we left, so I'm not surprised that things are going as they have.  I believe the evacuation could have been done better, but could have also been worse.  Troops evacuating while the enemy is advancing is always a game of musical chairs.  The last man to be evacuated, or the last squad is in grave danger of being overpowered by a factor of 1000 to 1.

This is why no president wants to be the one to bite the bullet and withdraw.  He takes the blame for the death and destruction and humanitarian slaughter that follows.  It is a no win proposition.  Unless you actually win the war, but we haven't done that since WWII.  We just lost another war.  We just don't admit it.

[Hydra009]

I knew we would not be in Afghanistan forever, and expected it would be a mess when we left, so I'm not surprised that things are going as they have.  I believe the evacuation could have been done better, but could have also been worse.  Troops evacuating while the enemy is advancing is always a game of musical chairs.

*raises hand high and waits for the teacher to call on him*
Umm...why was there 1) an enemy 2) in a position to exploit the withdraw and overrun any resistance?

Cause that looks a lot less like withdrawing and more like a crushing military defeat.

[Mike Cl]

Why was there an enemy?  Because Bush/Cheney wanted it that way--used Afg. to go into Iraq.  So, not any 'actual' enemy, just a made up one.  And our withdrawal was doomed from almost the start--Bush could have withdrawn prior to his leaving office, but that did not happen.  Biden really could not get out easily.  At least he did get out. 

[Shiranu]

Why was there an enemy?  Because Bush/Cheney wanted it that way--used Afg. to go into Iraq.  So, not any 'actual' enemy, just a made up one.  And our withdrawal was doomed from almost the start--Bush could have withdrawn prior to his leaving office, but that did not happen.  Biden really could not get out easily.  At least he did get out. 

Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan.

[Mike Cl]

Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan.

Until they slipped away--or, actually, Bush/Cheney let them go.  Al Qaeda did not have any oil.

[Hydra009]

Another thing that bothers me, I kept seeing articles where some defiant woman activist vows to stay in Afghanistan, likely to be killed.  And some people paint this as a courageous, virtuous thing.  No, it's extremely wasteful and counterproductive.

For starters, the Taliban has zero qualms about killing anyone they don't like, so you can't Patrick Henry them cause they'll choose death every time.  And when you're dead, you can't help anyone.  So either get the hell out or keep your head down (and intact).  DO NOT become a martyr.  Because I guarantee you, dying will have pretty much zero impact on Afghan society.  If anything, it'll be poorer for it.

[SGOS]

Until they slipped away--or, actually, Bush/Cheney let them go.  Al Qaeda did not have any oil.

bin Laden masterminds 9-11 from some place in Afghanistan.
US invades Afghanistan to kill him.

Makes sense so far, but then...

Saddam Hussein sits in Iraq watching it on the TV.
Bush decides Saddam is responsible.
America believes him during the 9-11 hysteria.
We shift our attention away from bin Laden and invade Iraq.

This was the most perplexing line of reasoning from high places I have ever seen.  My brain still swirls.  To get America on his side, Bush invented all kinds of secondary reasons why Saddam must be taken out.  All of them unsupported by actual evidence, based mostly on Bush's imagination and some hearsay from a former Iraqi taxicab driver.  The purpose for invading Afghanistan faded into the background, and 67% of the American population was happily sucked into one of the most costly political scams ever invented by a White House.  It almost makes me think there were other actual unspoken reasons we invaded Iraq.  Ya think?  Duh?!

[Hydra009]

If you guys ever need a laugh, check out this editorial from 2001.

A month into the war in Afghanistan, the hand-wringing has already begun over how long this might last. Let's all take a deep breath and repeat after me: Give war a chance. This is Afghanistan we're talking about. Check the map. It's far away.

I have no doubt, for now, that the Bush team has a military strategy for winning a long war.

Three time Pulitzer winner (yes, really) and galaxy brain over here

[SGOS]

So when can we start the hand-wringing?  Are we there yet?

[Blackleaf]

[Hydra009]

^ # of people employed to deliver mail VS number of people sent to destroy the One Ring and save Middle Earth.  Really makes you think, doesn't it?

[Hijiri Byakuren]

My uncle is livid. He served multiple tours in Afghanistan over the last fifteen years. He knew these people. And now they're suffering because, as he sees it, Biden swung the gate open for the Taliban shouting, "Come on in, boys!"

[SGOS]

I think it's a safe assumption that Biden never intended to get all Americans out, and that many Afghan allies would be left to the Taliban.  In any withdrawal, it's unavoidable that some would be left behind.  When it's all over he will say, "We tried," but Administration promises will not have been kept.  We knew this before the promises were made.  I was actually embarrassed watching the Administration making that claim.

[aitm]

I think after 20 years of raising and protecting your child, you would have some confidence that they would go out into the world and put up a fight….not just fall down on the ground and let people walk on you. Did anyone really expect the Afghans for all the braggadocio they have about never being conquered, would just run at the first sign of a Toyota pickup with two guys carrying a rifle?

[Cassia]

Hey Taliban. Power is out again and didn't you know garbage pickup is on Tuesday. The shelves are empty, there is no bread or water. Good luck Fuckers. Maybe they will be more effective than our fake democracy. They will leverage their so-called ISIS-special-K for more US $. Excellent plan.

I remember dickhead Cheney say this not "nation building" like in Viet Nam. Right. As fucked as the "getting out" is, at least they free to run their asshole theocracy now.