Cause and effect and miracles

[Simon Moon]

Let's say someone with severe, almost mortal CHEST PAIN (yes, did not change much) was being ''laid hands on'' by someone who claimed to be a miracle worker. Then that person stopped feeling that pain after being prayed for. Now you would not be convincing in saying it was a coincidence, for how could the pain stop right after the praying words?

You could PERHAPS justify that it was psychosomatic, that maybe because the person wanted to be healed, and believed, then she was able to ''self-cure''. But NO ONE would deny the causal relationship between the prayer and the ''cure''. Or at least you could deny, but you would not be convincing to anyone.

That's a bit clearer now?

Moron, it was always clear.

And once again, you provide us a hypothetical that could have so many natural and mundane explanations, to consider a supernatural explanation is the most likely, is the height of irrational thinking.

First of all, how was it determined that the chest pain was 'almost mortal'?

Off the top of my head:

It could have been a panic attack, that when the claimed faith healer laid on their hands, the person suffering the attack, calmed down.

It could have been an angina, a sometimes transitory condition, that feels as intense as a heart attack, but can go away quite quickly on it's own, and the 'faith healer' had nothing to do with it.

It could have been a momentary interruption of the electrical signal in the heart, causing the pain and panic, that went away on its own, and the 'faith healer' had nothing to do with it. 

There, 3 simple examples, that could easily explain how and why the person with the chest pain got better.

Let me ask you something.

What if the situation happened exactly as you stated, but the person that did the miracle healing, was a West African shaman, and the person recovered from their chest pain after he performed some ancient African ritual.

Would you still believe it was the supernatural ritual of the African that was responsible for the person recovering?

And let me add another question.

Why is that Catholics do not have better survival outcomes of literally any disease, or surgery? Why do Christians and Catholics get cancer, get into deadly car accidents, get heart attacks, etc, etc, etc, at EXACTLY the same rates as Jews, Muslims, Mormons, and non believers?

[drunkenshoe]

Now that's some serious dreaming.  I don't think I ever had a Jesus dream.  And a Moses dream?  Now that's something. How many people dream of Moses?

A lot? People who have to deal with excessive visual and textual material of the sort. You study iconography with Old and New Testament texts... scene by scene. Traditional art history teaching is based on brainwashing with images starting from the archaic, ancient examples as said. So to build a repository in the mind; memory and to assimilate the eye, in a linear sense and reaching all the way up to the contemporary. Development of fine art is based on religions, specifically Christianity. I don't think they are doing that anymore. I hope not.

It's not just the images. I've translated a long, complicated book that dealt with every kind of relations, links between possible prehistoric myths, religious traditions and Judaism - Christianity. It took a long time, it was a crazy one. My dream life's gone crazy along with it and I already had a source in my head and a vivid dream life. It's telling of mythic poetry and of all the gods, ancient egyptian, nordic, greek, roman, abrahamic...So you read and read and look and read and look...you imagine when you write it down. You live in it.

Moses is a collective character made of clan chiefs of Jewish tribes and he has a described, specific image. In this sense, gods and prophets are all the same male figure with changing faces through time. So, Moses is a just a stop at that chain of continously changing image in my head. And my mind offers descriptions of him in all that process and offers a result. For example the early Moses I have seen when I as young was a white bearded, clean old, calm white man in robes. Out of the Western paintings. The last Moses I've seen was a primitive tribe chief with a huge antler head dress, brown bearded, dirty, bloody warrior with piercing eyes; unsettling apperance. Like that one better. Mind upgrades, puts an order to things and get it out.  (Also, it could mean that some texts are always more intense than images because nothing is more powerful over us than our own imagination.)

So basically, it is too much for your brain and it's taking out the garbage to make room. Although it is an ordinary, simple process, people usually don't talk about it because it is about religion. It's awkward, it's weird. Religious traditions load, attach 'meaning' to this nonsense, dreaming about religious characters is something from religions themselves.

I also think that probably nonbelievers are more likely to dream about these characters compared to believers. Because the meanings are completely different. To me it's anthropological knowledge about human culture, it has an evolution like everything else and it is about cultures transforming characters to construct functional myths according to the times. But to them, it is real and they never change. That's the point of them. They would be less likley to dream about them as casual dudes going around having small talk, and probably that's why it is a big deal when they dream about it in a 'divine' manner.

But then it is just dreams...does it have a straight logic? Would it really work, if it has? It's gibberish in images.

[Paolo]

I think the irony of that message above is probably beyond your ability to understand.  You are heavy on the insulting and name calling.  Your communication skills are severely lacking.  You struggle to ask a coherent question.  And when you repeatedly fail to communicate what it is you are trying to say, you revert to what you are--a person who tries to shift the blame to the people you are addressing.  How old are you?  12?

It is not ironic, because insult is not ''the best'' I can do. Contrary to what you said, I can communicate pretty well, in my own view, even though as I said once before, English is NOT my first language. And people here have insulted me first, simply because I asked a ''stupid'' question in that other thread (even though, pathetically, they cannot even define what ''stupid'' would be in that case); you expect me to simply accept that, quietly? I will fight back because I'm within my rights, being insulted with no proper justification.

To answer your question: I'm 26 years old, and I live in Brazil (not U.S.A. like most of you, it seems). I suppose you will now call me retarded or something? Congratulations!!! You are the king of the world!!! 

[drunkenshoe]

I don't think that Paolo is looking at this from one religion point. He keeps shifting to a specific cone because that is the one he was born into.

As far as I understand, he actually understands that the 'healing' process may not be real, that it could be anything that is not actually related to the problem and is momentary. He says, 'but the person is healed and "cured" from his/her point of view because he/she is feeling good now and that is as a situation and an experience is undeniable for the other parties. "

He is looking something extraordinary, be it 'supernatural' or not; some secret and divine meaning deep inside that is forgotten and always missed by everyone. Because there has to be a 'nonmaterial' something behind all this. E: And I think he also thinks, if it is there, it can't be in one religion.

Here is my prophecy for you Paolo. After this phase you'll discover the 'secret' workings of human brain that there is something spiritual hidden in it, an 'evidence' for soul which all scientists actually agree with anyway. 

[SGOS]

So basically, it is too much for your brain and it's taking out the garbage to make room. Although it is an ordinary, simple process, people usually don't talk about it because it is about religion. It's awkward, it's weird. Religious traditions load, attach 'meaning' to this nonsense, dreaming about religious characters is something from religions themselves.

To me it's anthropological knowledge about human culture, it has an evolution like everything else and it is about cultures transforming characters to construct functional myths according to the times. But to them, it is real and they never change. That's the point of them. They would be less likley to dream about them as casual dudes going around having small talk, and probably that's why it is a big deal when they dream about it in a 'divine' manner.

But then it is just dreams...does it have a straight logic? Would it really work, if it has? It's gibberish in images.

Your dreams are not like mine.  They are not just different in content, but I get the impression that your mind and your dreams process your environment differently than the way my brain works.  I seldom dream about things, people, or characters I am deeply involved with or skills and studies that I have worked hard on.  My dreams are usually mundane to an extreme, involving people that I barely know or care about.  They are more on the order of a casual conversation with a passerby... Usually.  I do have intense dreams, but only on rare occasion, but seldom involve characters or people I know.

I can't remember ever dreaming about Jesus, let alone Moses.  Nor am I moved in any way by religious art.  I like art a lot.  Even as a kid in my teens I would take the subway to downtown Chicago to visit the Art Institute, where they had a room devoted to maybe billions of dollars of Christian art.  I've been impressed by the sizes of the canvas, and the artwork itself is of good quality, but beyond that, I have no feeling or interest.  That room was always an obligatory stop on the way to the "good" stuff, paintings I could become part of and identify with without having to struggle to put myself into, and what those paintings might be that held my attention were always surprises causing me to wonder why I liked them.



But then even as a kid, God and Jesus were boring.  I accepted the miracle stories and believed them, but ask me to define what I mean by boring, and I immediately have an image of sitting on a pew in church with my mind wandering to playing outside.

Unlike your anthropological interest, my interest in religion centers mostly around the psychology of what makes people believe in modern mythological ideas.  Humanity has been through this for millennia, over and over believing in one absurdity after another, but always thinking the absurdity currently in vogue has finally got it right.  It puzzles me no end.  But I don't dream about it. I never had a dream about Sigmund Freud either.

[SGOS]

I don't think that Paolo is looking at this from one religion point. He keeps shifting to a specific cone because that is the one he was born into.

As far as I understand, he actually understands that the 'healing' process may not be real, that it could be anything that is not actually related to the problem and is momentary. He says, 'but the person is healed and "cured" from his/her point of view because he/she is feeling good now and that is as a situation and an experience is undeniable for the other parties. "

Possibly, but I disregard his posts because he processes information like a theist, not like a skeptic.  Everything he offers takes on the format of, "Yeah, but... <insert theist apologetic here>."  He is unable to realize that an apologetic is a fallacy, or if he does, he presents it anyway as a defense.  He then follows up by admonishing us for not taking a fallacy into consideration, as if skeptics should be obligated to think about some supernatural claim for the hundredth time, and if we fail to get it, then for the 101th time, and the times after that until we legitimize it.

It's possible that he has trapped himself in a personal world inundated by fanciful claims, and thinks he can't find his way out until he settles all issues important or not.  It's also possible that he is a theist posing as a person seeking reasonable discussion.  Or maybe he is still trying to rid himself of his religious baggage, but afraid of letting it go.  At any rate he doesn't know how to communicate with skeptics, although he seems to be claiming he's the best skeptic around.

What we do here is not rocket science.  We don't spend much time giving due consideration to the cosmological argument for God.  We have done that formally or informally on our own long before we ever heard the names for the more fashionable philosophical arguments.  Why should we care about the preserved tongue deemed to be a special Catholic icon or other meaningless claims of religion?

[drunkenshoe]

Your dreams are not like mine.  They are not just different in content, but I get the impression that your mind and your dreams process your environment differently than the way my brain works.  I seldom dream about things, people, or characters I am deeply involved with or skills and studies that I have worked hard on.  My dreams are usually mundane to an extreme, involving people that I barely know or care about.  They are more on the order of a casual conversation with a passerby... Usually.  I do have intense dreams, but only on rare occasion, but seldom involve characters or people I know. ...

Yeah...everybody's different, but I think we remember very little portion of our dreams and I'm not sure that it is even related to how we think. I dream about many various things like everyone else, I just remember them more often. I don't really 'enjoy' religous paintings. That's a very small amount of my dreams. (Alos, for some reason, Hopper fits you very good, lol.)

[drunkenshoe]

Possibly, but I disregard his posts because he processes information like a theist, not like a skeptic.  Everything he offers takes on the format of, "Yeah, but... <insert theist apologetic here>."  He is unable to realize that an apologetic is a fallacy, or if he does, he presents it anyway as a defense.  He then follows up by admonishing us for not taking a fallacy into consideration, as if skeptics should be obligated to think about some supernatural claim for the hundredth time, and if we fail to get it, then for the 101th time, and the times after that until we legitimize it.

It's possible that he has trapped himself in a personal world inundated by fanciful claims, and thinks he can't find his way out until he settles all issues important or not.  It's also possible that he is a theist posing as a person seeking reasonable discussion.  Or maybe he is still trying to rid himself of his religious baggage, but afraid of letting it go.  At any rate he doesn't know how to communicate with skeptics, although he seems to be claiming he's the best skeptic around.

He doesn't know how to think like a sceptic. But this is not just something about people battling with religious belief or trying to make sense of these things for this or that reason, for the last few decades a very distorted sense of 'scepticism' is dominant everywhere. You could say that there is a crisis about it.

He is in the youngest millenial group. These kids were born into social media. They grew up with memes. Youtube videos explanations. There is no balance between literal and metaphoric thinking/understanding for them. They are highly literal, believer or nonbeliever. The name of concepts, words, terms, including newage moronic terms, their definitions and meanings are so blurred, bastardised, emptied... honestly, I don't blame them either. What was at the hand's reach for me at that age is burried under an enormous commercial overlay today...Depressing subject overall. Wait for the Z's to get old enough to drop in. That will be the real entertainment.

I get where Paolo is, what is he doing... At this point, it is a need, he'll do it. But he's years away, let me tell you.

[Mike Cl]

It is not ironic, because insult is not ''the best'' I can do. Contrary to what you said, I can communicate pretty well, in my own view, even though as I said once before, English is NOT my first language. And people here have insulted me first, simply because I asked a ''stupid'' question in that other thread (even though, pathetically, they cannot even define what ''stupid'' would be in that case); you expect me to simply accept that, quietly? I will fight back because I'm within my rights, being insulted with no proper justification.

To answer your question: I'm 26 years old, and I live in Brazil (not U.S.A. like most of you, it seems). I suppose you will now call me retarded or something? Congratulations!!! You are the king of the world!!! 

I will say that you do rather well for a person who writes in their non native language.  But some of the nuances of the language escape you--that is not a put down, but a constructive criticism.  When you write a somewhat confusing or unclear statement or question, your first response is to insult and name call.  It would be more constructive if you told the person who addresses your question that they misunderstood, that your are posting in your non native language and then rephrase your statement or question to make it more clear what it was you were actually asking or saying.

I suspect that if you were to come to this country for a visit, your command of English would be good enough to make your visit go smoothly--you would do well.  In a casual setting your English would be excellent.  But speaking well enough to get around well is not the same as having an easy time when discussing philosophical topics.  That type of discussion requires a more nuanced ability which would come only with practice I'd think.  When you make those types of mistakes, your first reaction is to name call and become defensive;  it would be more productive for both yourself (we learn best if we can accept our mistakes and learn how to correct them) and the person you are addressing. 

[Mike Cl]

BTW, Paolo, since you are from Brazil, what do you think of your current leader and government?  It looks to me like you have a leader that is very trump-like in that he seems to be very authoritarian and destructive of human rights.  But I will admit that I have not looked very deeply into the subject.

[SGOS]

for some reason, Hopper fits you very good, lol.)

Yikes, that's hardly the most uplifting painting.  I've heard it described as "desolate," but I don't think it can be described by a word.  It's more like, "Well, you just had to have been in that situation to understand it."  Chicago's Art Institute owns that painting, and a couple years ago, when I visited my sister in Chicago, we went there to see it, but it turns out it was on loan to some gallery in Europe, so my sister bought me a coffee mug and refrigerator magnet embossed with Hopper's painting from the museum gift shop.  The refrigerator magnet is top quality; It sticks so hard to the refrigerator, it's like it's glued on.  lol 

[drunkenshoe]

Yikes, that's hardly the most uplifting painting.  I've heard it described as "desolate," but I don't think it can be described by a word.  It's more like, "Well, you just had to have been in that situation to understand it."  Chicago's Art Institute owns that painting, and a couple years ago, when I visited my sister in Chicago, we went there to see it, but it turns out it was on loan to some gallery in Europe, so my sister bought me a coffee mug and refrigerator magnet embossed with Hopper's painting from the museum gift shop.  The refrigerator magnet is top quality; It sticks so hard to the refrigerator, it's like it's glued on.  lol

That's a good description, lol. My mother loves him. I don't know, it is not that bleak, imo... I like that there is some warmth and hope in that blunt, plain world, hidden so naturally. Maybe that's why he is a good realist. I mean can you see those things if you don't look hard in reality, without fooling yourself? They're there. You need to let it go to see it. Become that plain to feel it, I mean. I like the one with the young woman sitting in a cafe. E: it could be a diner...

[There was this American novel I have read so long ago...I picked up coincidentally...It was telling about a movie producer in 50s and his daughter? Can't remember anything. But I always remember the feeling that book gives. It was like reading Hopper in a sunny, boring room. Or maybe he wrote Hopper reading his paintings, what do I know...]

They make those stuff really solid. I have a Schiele and a Marc sitting side by side on the ref door. They didn't give in, in almost 15 years. Nope. But my little coin magnet Schieles are hanging by a thread on my desk lamp...

[Paolo]

I will say that you do rather well for a person who writes in their non native language.  But some of the nuances of the language escape you--that is not a put down, but a constructive criticism.  When you write a somewhat confusing or unclear statement or question, your first response is to insult and name call.  It would be more constructive if you told the person who addresses your question that they misunderstood, that your are posting in your non native language and then rephrase your statement or question to make it more clear what it was you were actually asking or saying.

I suspect that if you were to come to this country for a visit, your command of English would be good enough to make your visit go smoothly--you would do well.  In a casual setting your English would be excellent.  But speaking well enough to get around well is not the same as having an easy time when discussing philosophical topics.  That type of discussion requires a more nuanced ability which would come only with practice I'd think.  When you make those types of mistakes, your first reaction is to name call and become defensive;  it would be more productive for both yourself (we learn best if we can accept our mistakes and learn how to correct them) and the person you are addressing.

Thanks, Mike. I will try from now on to be less agressive, and more patient with folks here. You are probably correct, maybe the fact that English is my second language is affecting these debates.

[Mike Cl]

Thanks, Mike. I will try from now on to be less agressive, and more patient with folks here. You are probably correct, maybe the fact that English is my second language is affecting these debates.

Paolo, no problem.  I like to get the view of people from different countries--and we have a few that post here regularly.  I don't remember anyone from Brazil, tho.   

[Paolo]

BTW, Paolo, since you are from Brazil, what do you think of your current leader and government?  It looks to me like you have a leader that is very trump-like in that he seems to be very authoritarian and destructive of human rights.  But I will admit that I have not looked very deeply into the subject.

I could give a more elaborate response, but for now, I will say that I have no sympathy towards Bolsonaro or any of his government buddies. And I mean that not as persons, of course, but the as politicans mainly. Though they also seem to display repulsive behavior very often in the media.